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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION. 



COMMISSION MEETING 
Maryland Suite, Holiday Inn 
Baltimore, Maryland 
October 15, 1966 



COMMISSION MEETING 
Maryland Suite, Holiday Inn 
Baltimore, Maryland 
October 16, 1966 



VOLUME VII 



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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 

WILLIAM PRESTON LANE, JR. 

Honorary Chairman 

H. VERNON ENEY 
Chairman 

ROBERT j. MARTINEAU 
Secretaij 



E. DALE ADKINS, JR. 

HARRY BARD 

CALHOUN BOND 

ELSBETH LEVY BOTHE 

FRANKLIN L. BURDETTE 

RICHARD W. CASE 

HAL C. B. CLAGETT 

CHARLES DELLA 

MRS. MAURICE P. FREEDLANDER 

JAMES OC. GENTRY 

JOHN R. HARGROVE 



STANFORD HOFF 
MARTIN D. JENKINS 
CLARENCE W. MILES 
EDWARD T. MILLER 
CHARLES MINDEL 
JOHN W. MITCHELL 
E. PHILLIP SAYRE 
ALFRED L. SCANLAN 
L. MERCER SMITH 
MELVIN J. SYKES 
FURMAN L. TEMPLETON 



WILLIAM C. WALSH 



• *••«•• 



JOHN C. BROOKS 

Executive Director 



KALMAN R. HETTLEMAN 

Assistant to the Executive Director 

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William Prescott Allen (Resigned January 5^ 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. (Resigned May 13^ 1966) 
Walter R. Haile (Resigned Decemhev 20^ 1966) 
William J. McWilliams (Resigned September 10^ 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. (Resigned August 2_, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. (Resigned July 12^ 1966) 



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700 ^^ercantile Trust Building 
Baltimore. Maryland 21202 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 
COMMITTEES 



COMMITTEE ON ELECTIVE FRANCHISE 
AND DECLARATION OF RIGHTS 

James O'C. Gentry, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
July 12, 1966) 
Charles Delia 
Leah S. Freedlander 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Stanford Hoff 
John W. Mitchell 
(appointed on November 9, 1966) 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lewis D. Asper, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON THE EXECUTIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

E. Dale Adkins , Jr., Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Charles Mindel 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Furman L. Temple ton 

Garrett Power, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 
(served as Chairman until 
July 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

Harry Bard, Chairman 

Charles Delia 

Edward T. Miller 

Charles Mindel 

Alfred L. Scanlan 

John H. Michener, Reporter 

(appointed on September 12, 1966) 



Martin D. Jenkins 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William C. Walsh 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
Alexander Harvey, II 

(served as Reporter until 
September 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 
DEPARTMENT 

Robert J. Martineau, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
August 2, 1966) 
Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Clarence W. Miles 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lawrence F. Rodowsky, Reporter 



Richard W. Case 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 

(served as Chairman until 
September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 

(served as Chairman from 
September 10, 1965 to 
August 2, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 

(served until July 12, 1966) 
E. Phillip Sayre 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
L. Mercer Smith 

(served until June 6, 1966 
William C. Walsh 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STATE FINANCE 
AND TAXATION 

Richard W. Case, Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Stanford Hoff 

Martin D. Jenkins 

L. Mercer Smith 

Stephen H. Sachs, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON MISCELLANEOUS 
PROVISIONS 

Elsbeth Levy Bothe, Chairman 
Leah S. Freedlander 
James O'C. Gentry 
Furman L. Temple ton 
Lewis A. Noonberg, Reporter 
(appointed February 26, 1966) 



Harry Bard 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Charles Mindel 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON POLITICAL 
SUBDIVISIONS AND LOCAL 
LEGISLATION 

Hal C. B. Clagett, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 

December 2, 1965) 
Franklin L. Burdette 
Leah S. Freedlander 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served as Chairman until 

December 2, 1965) 
L. Mercer Smith 
John B. Howard, Reporter 
(appointed on May 12, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5,1966! 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 1966 

to December 20, 1966) 
Edward T. Miller 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Frank A. DeCosta, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 22, 19 66) 



COMMITTEE ON STYLE 

Franklin L. Burdette , Chairman 

E. Dale Adkins , Jr. 

Harry Bard 

Richard W. Case 

Martin D. Jenkins 

Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 



E. Dale Adkins, Jr. 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William Prescott Allen 

(served until January 5, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 

(served from July 12, 1966 to 
December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 

(served until September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 

(served until August 2, 1966) 
Furman L. Templeton 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
John Martin Jones, Jr. 

(served as Reporter until 
February 23, 1966) 



Calhoun Bond 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON CONVENTION PROCEDURES 

Alfred L. Scanlan, Chairman 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

James O'C. Gentry 

Robert J. Martineau 

Edward T. Miller 

John W. Mitchell 

(appointed on November 9, 1966) 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Eugene Pitrof, Reporter 



Franklin L. Burdette 
(served until June 
Charles Delia 
(served until June 
Stanford Hoff 
(served until June 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served until June 
George L. Russell, 
(served until June 



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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 

Meeting of the Constitutional Convention Commission 

held on Saturday, October 15, 1966, at 9 o'clock a.m., at 

the Maryland Suite, Holiday Inn, Baltimore, Maryland. 

PRESENT: 

H. Vernon Eney , Esquire, 

Chairman of the Commission 
Honorable E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Member 
Dr. Harry Bard, Member 
Calhoun Bond, Esquire, Member 
Mrs. Elizabeth Levy Bothe, Member 
Dr. Franklin L. Burdette, Member 
Richard VJ. Case, Esquire, Member 
Hal C. B. Clagett, Esquire, Member 
Mr. Charles Delia, Member 
James O'Conor Gentry, Esquire, Member 
Walter R. Haile, Esquire, Member 
John R. Hargrove, Esquire, Member 
Stanford Hoff, Esquire, Member 
John B. Hov;ard, Esquire, Member 
Dr. Martin D. Jenkins, Member 
Honorable William Preston Lane, Jr., Member 
Robert J. Martineau, Esquire, Member 
Edward T. Miller, Esquire, Member 
Charles Mindel, Esquire, Member 
John W. Mitchell, Esquire, Member 
Mr. E. Phillip Sayre, Member 
Alfred L. Scanlan, Esquire, Member 



Reported by: 
Norris F. Swetland 



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ALSO PRESENT: 



John C, Brooks, Esquire, Executive Director 

Dr. John H. Michener, Research Assistant 

Mr. Garrett Power, Reporter, Executive Committee 



THE CHAIRHAN: We will now resume consideration 
of the Sixth Report of the Committee on Convention Pro- 
cedures. There are two matters not embraced within that 
report which the Committee wants to bring to the attention 
of the Committee. 

MR. SCANLAN: We hadn't considered specifically 

drafting proposed legislation. At various times, I think 

we have called to the attention of this Commission the 

expense involved in a special election. The estimates we 

got through the Attorney General's office som.e time ago, 

/■ 
I think a year ago, were in the neighborhood of $750,000. 

But, whatever the expense, it has to be borne by somebody, 

either the State or allocated to the local subdivisions, 

I believe, on the basis of the number of votes cast in the 

previous election. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Keep your voice up, please. 



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MR. SCANLAN: I believe, and I don't vouch 
for the accuracy of the statement if it is allocated among 
the subdivisions, it is allocated on the basis of the 
votes. But in any event, it is clear in our minds, the 
expense of this election, it is a State matter, one of 
the most fundamental State matters we have had in genera- 
tions , and the costs should be borne by the taxpayers of 
the State as a vjhole and not saddled on the particular 
subdivisions. Vie V70uld recommend that we think it 
appropriate to draft a bill to appropriate the monies for 
the conduct of the elction. I think V7e have to leave the 
figure blank. 

I didn't make any provision for that. More 
Specific estimates can come in by the t5.me the Legislature 
convenes . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Would you make a motion? 

MR. SCANLAN: I move this Commission send on to 
the Legislature at least in draft form a paper that would 
assess or provide for the costs of the special election 
as recommended in our Report, and that this be a State 
expense. 



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MR. HOWARD: Second the motion. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? 




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Mr. Brooks? 




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MR. BROOKS: Would it be feasible to incorporate 




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into the State budget an amount which could be amended if 




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it V7ere too low or not correct rather than put it in a 




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supplemental appropriation bill? 




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MR. SCANLAN: I guess we could figure, John, 




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recognizing it would be a guesstimate. We do have this 




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figure roughly of $750,000. I guess we could name the 




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figure and get it in the budget; might be a wise thing. 




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MR. BROOKS: That is quite a large figure for 




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them. 




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MR. SCANLAN: The election will be in June of 




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19 67, so it will be in this budget. 




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MR. BROOKS: That is right. 




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THE CHAIK-IAN: When you say this budget, what 




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do you mean, the budget now under consideration? 




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MR. SCANLAN: The budget that goes to the 




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Legislature in January. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: That budget won't take effect 






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until the fiscal year beginning July 1, 1967. So it 
V70uld have to be supplemental to the current budget. May 
I suggest if you would accept the motion in this form 
that the Commission recommends to the Governor and the 
Legislature that the entire expense of the special election 
be borne by the State and thai: the Commission request the 
Committee to draft appropriate legislation to carry this 
into effect? Is that the substance of your proposal? 

MR. SCANLAN: Yes. 

THE CHAIKI>'iAN: Any discussion? 

Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: Just a query. VJhat about the cost 
of the Convention assuming that V7ill be in the next budget? 

THE CHAIRllAN: The Convention expense would be 
in the budget for the fiscal year beginning July 1, 1967. 
That is the budget that will be presented to the Legisla- 
ture next January. 

MR. MILLER: Should we nov7 be submitting the 
program and asking for enabling legislation in the current 
session? Ought that not to be included at the same time? 

THE CHAIRMAN: In effect, V7e have already done 



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1 so in that the bill considered yesterday would provide 

2 that the expense be met, and we have already requested 

3 the Governor as I indicated yesterday, to initiate the 
^ necessary steps to include it in the budget. 

5 You ready for the question? The question 

6 arises on the motion that the Committee recommend to the 

7 Governor and to the Legislature that the entire expense 

8 of the special election for delegates to the Constitutional 

9 Convention be paid by the State and that the m.eeting on 
10 Convention Procedures dr^ft appropriate legislation to 
H carry this into effect. 

12 All in favor, signify by saying Aye. Contrary, 

13 No. The Ayes have it. 

14 Nov?, Mr. Scanlan, the Staff suggested to your 

15 Com^mittee that it prepare Rules of Procedure for considera- 

16 tion of the Convention. I understand your Committee has 

17 discussed it, but is 5.n some uncertainty about it. Can 

18 you present that matter to the Commission? 

19 MR. SCANLAN: Yes, as the Chairman has said, it 

20 has been suggested that maybe this Commission should, 

21 among its other works,, draft a proposed set of rules which 



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the Convention could observe after it had been organized 
and our Coriinittee has examined rules of the House 
Representatives of the United States Congress, the rules 
of the House Delegates and rules of the Senate, and the 
rules of the Rhode Island Constitution Convention. I be- 
lieve it fair to say the Committee's, some lethargy on 
the Committee's part stems from the fact that some of 
them regard this as a make v7ork project. The other arises 
out of the concern that maybe if this Commission were to 
draft a full-fledged set of rules to give to the Conven- 
tion some might feel we are usurping the functions of 
the Convention. 

It has some advantage, of course, in having 
rules ready made to observe as soon as the Convention 
begins to operate. On the other hand, the way we drafted 
this bill, we will have the summer to organize, and we 
will follow Roberts Rules of Orders until they do organize 
and in that summer, perhaps they can work out different 
rules if they don't prefer to follow Roberts Rules of 
Orders . 

In any event, the Commission is concerned 



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1 whether this Coipmission wishes it to proceed in drafting 

2 a proposed set of rules which this Commission would 

5 approve and recommend to the Convention when it convenes. 

4 THE CHAira-IAN: Mr. Delia? 

5 MR. BELLA: Mr. Chairman, I have a very strong 

6 opinion that something should be used as a guide. I have 

7 been to many conventions. I know every convention I have 

8 attended they have always had a set of rules to work 

9 from. The Rules Committee can make any changes they want, 

10 but it saves an awful lot of time because the Convention 

11 can't get going until you have the rules to work by. You 

12 can have a lot of people unfamiliar V7ith these things, 

13 and it creates an av/ful lot of discussion. If they 

14 have something to work V7ith , a guide, it doesn't take too 
16 long. I think we should v^ork up a set of rules. 

16 MR. SCANLAN: V7e have provided in the bill, in 

17 the draft bill that Roberts Rules of Orders be observed 

18 until the Convention adopts its ov7n rules, so they wouldn't 

19 be operating -- 

20 MR. BELLA: But you need more than that. How 

21 many times a person should speak, hov; long they should 



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speak, and rules of operations and things of that sort that 
have to be taken under consideration. It seems to me 
that it would be to the advantage of the Convention itself 
if they have somebody that has something in their hand 
and from there to let the Committee make whatever changes 
they want . 

THE CHAIRI^N: Mr. Miller? ' 
MR. MILLER: I disagree a little bit about the 
procedure because if we draw up a set of rules and the 
Committee adopts them, presumably if they are a nevj set 
of rules even though there are many things in them that 
are in other rules of order, the Corranittee, the Convention 
will start without precedent and the parliamentarian will 
have to construe every phrase. I think we V70uld be in a 
better position if V7e recommend to the Commission that 
they select some well established rules of order, and then 
modify them to fit the occasion, but in so doing, they 
would have a background of, in some cases, generations of 
experience as to what is relevant and v7hat isn't. The 
parliamentarian would have, not have to make a complete 
research on every point that may develop. Personally, I 



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■*• think the two major parties have learned their lesson, 
^ and I hold no brief for it because I am familiar with it, 
3 but for instance, the Rules of the House of Representa- 
* tives are so V7ell established by precedent and everything 
^ else, and I assume the same thing might be true of the 
" Rules of the Maryland Senate or any long-continuing body. 
' But I vjould recommend that we start out with something 
° that has precedent behind it. 

^ THE CHAIRl-IAN: Mr. Miller's statem.ent, I think, 

points up a very substantial part of the problem, and I 
would like to state to the Commission the position of the 
Staff on this matter and the reason V7e requested the 
^^ Coiimittee to draft a set of rules. The 1867 Convention, 
^^ as you knov7, convened and in an hour elected the President 
^^ and then spent three days debating V7hat kind of rules 

they should adopt. Nothing else was done except that. V7e 
^' realize, of course, that there V70uld be some who would 

^° say if this Commission presented a draft of rules that 
the Commission is trying to take over all the functions 
of the Convention and merely make it a rubber stamp. We 
don't think that charge can be leveled any more at the 



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idea of preparing the results than it can at preparing 
a draft of the Constitution or the commentaries or the 
research papers or anything else v;e will present. We 
hope, as indicated in the discussion of the bill yester- 
day, that the Convention V70uld convene in the early part 
of the summer for the purpose of electing the presiding 
officer and have him appoint conmiittees and to enable 
the Members to begin their study of whatever materials 
they want to study, including, of course, the work of 
this Commission. 

It would be most helpful, we think, if the 
officers, principal officers of the Convention, such as 
the parliamentarian could be appointed at that time and the 
Rules Committee could be appointed so that they could con- 
sider a draft of rules already presented and be able 
to move forward quickly. There are some slight disadvan- 
tages to preparing a draft, but V7e think the advantages 
far outweigh the disadvantages . 

Let me add just one more comment. This is in 
no sense a make work project. V7e are on the reverse pedal 
on that now. Anything, vje don't have to do, V7e are not 



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going to undertake to do. 

MR. BROOKS: One further v;ord about the useful- 
ness of some rules. The one recommendation we received 
above all others from both the Rhode Island and Michigan 
people involved in a convention was that we could seriously 
consider preparing some recommended rules that the Conven- 
tion might use as a base. Because this wasn't done in 

is 
Rhode Island, the Rhode Island convention / practically 

bogged down. It is still in session. There is no hope of 
their ever coming up V7ith a product, and it is a matter 
of months before it dies completely. In Michigan, they 
had a great deal of difficulty. They V7ere never really 
satisfied with their rules, and it v;as some of the recom- 
mendations of alterations in their rules that prompted 
Rhode Island to adopt basically the Michigan rules with 
a fev7 changes that didn't prove to add anything and 
hindered the concept of operations even more. 

But in light of the recommendation yesterday 
that the Convention keep a record of its transactions 
which is also a proposition that was originally desirable 
in Michigan and Rhode Island, the fact that the Convention 



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can as well as not decide to meet in executive session and 
in which case not keep its record, and then just meet in 
regular open public session whenever it desires to for 
five or ten minutes and ratify everything that is done 
in five minutes' time that it may have done in executive 
session over a period of months somevjhat defeats the who 16 
idea of having any record at all, and this is one of the 
problems that developed in Rhode Island that ought to 
be considered and some recommendation made on, in the 
nature of rules that really aren't sufficiently covered 
by Roberts Rules of Order or in fact, by the Rules of 
the House and Senate of the State Legislature. 

It ought to be thought out in advance insofar 
as vjhat is desirable and some recommendations prepared 
because of the peculiarities of the Convention are such 
that there should be some distinction betv/een their rules 
and organization from v^hat normally exists for just the 
State Legislature or some other legislative body that 
one might find some procedures used by such groups . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

Governor? 



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1 GOVERNOR LANE: Basically, we are recommending 

2 to the Convention v/hat we hope they V7ill do. I can't see 

3 any objection to always including a suggestion that would 

4 speed up their work. 

5 THE CHAIRI-IAN: We have no motion. VJill somebody 

6 make a motion? I am sorry, Mr. Sayre. 

7 MR. SAYRE: I V7as just going to move that 

8 the Committee on Convention Procedures be requested to 

9 prepare a set of rules for the Convention. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: Second. 

11 THE CHAIRl'IAK: The motion is that the Committee 

12 on Convention Procedures be requested to prepare a draft 

13 of rules of procedure for the Convention. Is there any 

14 further discussion? 

15 Mr. Scanlan? 

16 MR. SCANLAN: I have nothing. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? All 

18 those in favor, signify by saying Aye. Contrary, No. The 

19 Ayes have it, and it is so ordered. 

20 Do you have anything further, Mr. Scanlan? 

21 MR. SCANLAN: No, Mr. Chairman. 



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1 THE CHAIRI'IAN: That concludes the consideration 

2 of the Sixth Report of the Conimittee on Convention Pro- 

3 cedures . We v^ill now proceed to a consideration of the 

4: Fifth Report of the Committee on Miscellaneous Provisions. 

5 MR. BROOKS: Is there anyone that doesn't have 

6 a copy of the Report? 

7 THE CHAIPuMAN: This is the Report dated October 

8 14, 1966. 

9 Mrs. Bothe? 

10 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, the Fifth Report 

11 of the Committee on Miscellaneous Provisions deals with 

12 the education provisions of the Constitution. The Fourth 

13 Report of the Committee which was submitted at the July 

14 meeting in Easton also gave recommendations regarding 

15 education. There was some discussion at the July meeting 

16 which resulted in agreement of the Commission with the 

17 Comriiittee on certain matters of principle, but no definitiv 

18 action was taken. Since that time, the Committee has 

19 considerably reviewed the material and thinking contained 

20 in the Fourth Report and has completely revised that 

21 Report although there has been no substantial change in the 



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position taken by the Committee at the July meeting, and 
in that Report. 

I might say there is one change or one deletion 
that ^f7as made by the Committee as a result of action taken 
by the Commission at the July meeting. We originally 
had recommended that there be a section of the education 
article prohibiting discrimination in the school system. 
In view of the fact that the Commission in the Declara- 
tion of Rights proposing a general prohibition, V7e felt 
that Such a provision in the education article V70uld be 
redundant and not necessary, so that we have not put 
forv7ard that recommendation at this time. 

Otherwise, the substance of our Report or the 
substantial recommendations in our Report are the same, 
although the reasoning is somewhat different. The exist- 
ing education provisions of the Constitution are repro- 
duced in the Report on Page 2. They consist of Article 
VIII of the Constitution which is devoted entirely to 
the subject of education in three sections and Article 43 
of the Declaration of Rights which is a general exhortation 
to encourage the diffusion of knowledge and virtue, et 



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cetera. The Declaration of Rights Committee determined 
not to put a provision of this nature in the proposed 
Declaration of Rights, and V7e have dealt with it in the 
general education article. The Committee, of course, had 
first to consider whether it was necessary to include 
an education article in the Constitution. We had no 
difficulty in making that determination. Most State Con- 
stitutions do contain provisions relating to education, 
and it seemed to us that in the yeais since the 1867 
Constitution had been formulated that education had become 
increasingly important. 

I believe that the discussion at the July meet- 
ing constituted a mandate to this Commission that there 
should be an education article in the Constitution so 
that no action on that general subject need be taken by 
the meeting today. Now, as to V7hat that education section 
should contain, and we make no recommendation as to 
whether it should be a separate article or whether the 
section or the provisions on education v7ould be incor- 
porated in some other part of the Constitution, as to what 
it should contain the Committee has studied a great deal 



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1 of literature, has had many contacts with the adrninistra- 

2 tive and teaching personnel in the State School System. 

3 We know the hearing last March at which some twenty dif- 

4 ferent persons appeared that representatives of the 

5 educational institutions and of the general public to give 

6 us suggestions as to what they felt should be and shouldn't 

7 be in the education article -- and after surveying the 

8 situation certain issues developed which we felt V7ere 

9 the vital ones we had to deal with. Now, starting on 

10 Page 4 and going on to Page 5 of the Report are listed 

11 what we found to be the basic issues as presented to us. 

12 ye considered these for inclusion in an education article 

13 for the nev; Constitution. 

14 The first of them dealt with Section 3 of 

15 Article VIII. That is a statement --oh, I might say 

16 in addition to the provisions on Page 2, there were also 

17 the very significant provisions contained in Article III, 

18 Section 52, which the Commission acted on yesterday on 

19 the recommendation of the Committee on Finance and Taxa- 

20 tion, and the recom.mendat ion adopted by the Commission 

21 V7as that V7hich our Committee felt should have been continue 



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1 as the other provisions in the nev/ Constitution regarding 

2 education. Now, there v/as considerable sentiment 

3 expressed that the, that not only should the budget pro- 

4- visions be retained but that the substance of Section 3 of 

6 Article VIII that the school fund be inviolate should also 

6 be retained in the nevj Constitution. Then there was 

7 sentiment expressed regarding the State Board of Education 

8 and the State Superintendent of Public Schools. There is 

9 no mention whatever made of them in the current Constitu- 

10 tion, and there was some feeling that they should be 

11 recognized, and their means of selection placed in the 

12 Constitution. 

13 Third was that the University of Maryland and 

14 its Board of Regents be given constitutional recognition, 

15 and of course, that will be gone into with some debate, 

16 I think, this m.orning. It was also suggested, and I might 

17 say that the question of autonomy for the other institu- 

18 tions of higher learning of the State was not dealt with as 

19 comprehensively as it should have been in our earlier 

20 Report. Since July, v^7e have had considerable occasion to 

21 review the situation with regard to the Government and high 



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1 educational facilities in the State, particularly as 

2 regards the State Board of Colleges and have come up 

3 with a recommendation in this Report. On the Commission's: 

4 meeting in July, Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Bard both made 

5 recommendations regarding recognition of the autonomy 

6 for other institutions of higher learning in the State, 

7 and we have also dealt with those in our Report. There 

8 V7as a suggestion made principally by Dr. Cohen that the 

9 Constitution should provide that all qualified residents 

10 of the State be entitled to a higher education v^ithout 

11 regard to their ability to pay, and there was a converse 

12 concern expressed at the July meeting that the Committee 

13 should frame its recommendations in such a V7ay as to 

14 be certain that the State was not obligated to supply 

15 higher education to everyone regardless. We think we have 

16 also taken care of that situation. Then, the question 

17 arose of the Maryland practice of granting aid to private 

18 institutions and whether that should be given constitution- 

19 al sanction. Our Report deals also with that question. 

20 Nov;, as to the resolution of these various resolutions I 

21 have outlined, would it be agreeable if we go through the 



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resolutions and take various action if necessary? 

THE CHAIRMAN: You mean independent of those 
embodied in the draft you suggested? 

MRS. BOTHE: Yes, the draft is fashioned for 
V7hat it leaves out as V7hat it contains. 

MR. SCANIJ^N: Why don't you go through the 
Sections and if you left something out that should be in, 
it can be raised by motion? This way you debate issues, 
and it might be academic. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let us proceed V7ith the consider- 
ation of the Sections, and if any of the omitted matters 
are not covered in the debate, you can decide then whether 
you V7ant a specific approval or disapproval. 

MRS. BOTHE: I trust everyone has carefully 
read the voluminous report distributed. 

The Committee proposes that there be either 
an Article or various Sections devoted to education in 
the nev7 Constitution and breaks down the recommendation 
into three sections. • 

MR. DELLA: What page are you on? 

MRS. BOTHE: Page 2, they are all reproduced 



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1 together and starting on Page 15, they are reproduced 

2 again with the commentary. Proposed Section 1. It says, 

3 The State shall encourage the advancement of knovz ledge; 

4 v7herefore, the General Assembly shall appropriate funds 

5 for a system of public education at all levels as it deems 

6 desirable, to foster, enhance and promote the intellectual, 

7 cultural and occupational development of the people. 

8 This proposed Section, one to which a sample 

9 v;as made and attached by Mrs. Freedlander, V70uld incorporat 

10 the sentiment and admittedly it is a sentiment expressed 

11 nov7 in Article 43 of the Declaration of Rights and also 

12 V70uld be a nudge to the General Assembly to support all 

13 manner of education in the State to the extent possible. 

14 It is a recognition of thetremendous expansion of educa- 

15 tion, public education, since the 1867 Constitution vjhich 

16 planned and thought and gave the concept of the grade 

17 school. We had not recommended that community colleges, 

18 kindergartens, adult education or any particular phase of 

19 higher or lower education other than the University of 

20 Maryland which comes next be recognized as such in the 

21 Constitution. VJe feel that the facilities V7hich the State 



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1 is affording are constantly changing and expanding and 

2 that while there should be recognition of the State's 

3 support of education outside of the standard grade school 
and elementary school level, that it should be done through 

5 a general exhortation such as we have placed in Section 1. 
" We have made a separate section out of the 

^ exhortation for the reason that we want to separate the 

^ concept of encouragement of education from that of man- 
^ datory education which is what we place in Section 2. V7e 
feel that this statement takes care of some of the com- 

^•^ mentary made at the July meeting that there might be some 

1 ? 

danger if the elementary school mandate were mixed with 

•^^ the balance of the educational program and offered 

of 
■^^ publicly there might be a danger/someone complaining 

1^ education at any level as a matter of right. 

1^ This does away with that problem and implies 

^^ it in the recommendation as a rejection, happily of the 

"*■" right to education beyond the elementary school level at 

^^ State expense. 

THE CHAIRI-IAN: Mrs. Freedlander, since your 

dissent relates to Section 1, do you want to comment 



20 
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1 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. As Mrs. Bothe said, we 

^ had discussed this at great length, and this Section 1 is 

3 a new Section V7hich was added after our last meeting. As 
I have stated in the commentary, I do not feel that there 

5 is a need for this Section because Section 2 says all 

" the things that Section 1, that we believe in v7ithout 

' the necessity. It is mandatory that there be a system of 

D 

° free public schools, and it provides for such other 

public educational institutions such as kindergartens, 
adult education programs, and community colleges. That 
phrase, other educational institutions takes care of 
the other institutions. Now, the words may seem picayune 

•"■^ in my commentary, but I don't see the necessity for using 

■*■ such words as wherever, to foster, enhance and promote. 
I like the simple words, I like the conciseness of our 

^^ original Article, and I feel it has more meaning and is 

^' something that can be enforced. 

^^ THE CHAIRMAN: The original Article to which 

you refer is reproduced in this Report. 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes, what is Section 2 of the 
majority Report is, I V70uld 1 5.ke to see be Section 1. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: And that is on Page 1 of your 



dissent? 



MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes, and also on Page 15 
of the majority Report, Section 2. Section 2 of the 
majority Report. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The Section 1 that you propose 
is not identical with Section 2 of the majority Report. 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes, I believe it is . 

MR. BROOKS: Section 2 is incorporated in Sec- 
t ion 1 . 

MR. SCANLAN: Say that again. 

THE CHAIPJ'IAN: Section 1 as Mrs. Freedlander 
advocates it, includes everything that is in Section 2, 
but includes more also. It is on Page 1 of her dissent. 

MRS. FI^EDLANDER: It is the original Report 
we made . 

THE CHAIPvMAN: Any question or comment? 

Mr. Clagett? 

MR. CLAGETT: Then, do I understand correctly 
that the second portion of your recommended Section 1 as 
appears on the first page of your dissent V70uld include 



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1 the recommended Section 1? 

2 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes, v7ithout the exhortation 

3 Some change of words in it. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

5 DR. BARD: Mr. Chairman, is it in order to 

6 comment not on the substitution of one section for another, 

7 but on the contents or let us say, the deletions, as I 

8 see it, in terms of both proposals, or is this out of order? 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no. 

10 DR. BARD: Well, I v;ould like to start the 

11 discussion by a question. I V7as present when there was 

12 a good deal of discussion in connection with Section 3 of 

13 Article VIII in the current Constitution, school fund of 

14 the State shall be kept inviolate and appropriated only to 

15 the purposes of education. Dr. Polin and a whole host 

16 of people involved in education in the State of Maryland 

17 and in the Counties of Maryland made it clear that this 

18 particular section was the one that made it possible for 

19 them to be able to depend upon the budget for their 

20 respective County school systems and the State school 

21 system. 



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1 THE CHAIPI-IAN: Dr. Bard, may I interrupt a mom- 

2 ent? You were not here yesterday. At the time we con- 

3 sidered the Second Report of the Committee on Finance, 
^ I think that the emphasis of the people to v7hom V7e have 

5 just referred and the protection of the financial matters 

6 dealing with education was more with respect to the 

7 budgetary provisions in Section 52. The Second Report 

8 of the Committee on Finance presented yesterday and 

^ approved provides for that kind of financial protection. 
10 DR. BARD: Then I withdraw the comment. 

^^ THE CHAIRI-IAN: Any further question regarding 

12 Section 1? 

13 Mr. Miller? 

1"^ MR. MILLER: I suppose it is standard, but it 

15 seems to me — but vjhat is school age for a child? 

16 MRS. BOTHE: I would like to mention that 

1''' because a nijmber of State Constitutions specify betv7een 

18 6 and 16 or 16. We deliberately phrased the word the V7ay 

1^ we did because the concept is a changing one, going 

both dov7n and up. Kindergartens V7ill probably be avail- 



20 



21 able to all children within the foreseeable future, and it 

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is very likely through junior college years a free educa- 
tion will be available. The use of the words, school age, 
is to connote whatever the current meaning of it may be, 

4: and v;e feel by using it, there will be no need for con- 

5 stitutional amendment on the subject at any time. 

6 MR. MILLER; The only thought I have in that 

7 connection is the word, children. In this day when so 

8 many young men are drafted to go to V7ar and come back, 

9 they may be in their twenties or twenty-one, and they 

10 are not children, but they should have the, they are of 

11 school age in view of that kind of situation. I don't 

12 like the word, children. 

13 THE CHAIRI'IAN: Mr. Delia? 

14 MR. DELLA: I think it is \jise to leave the 

15 school age out of the phrase as such, because some educa- 

16 tors are of the opinion now that children should start to 

17 school at the age of tv70 and three years of age because 

18 the earlier they can get them started, the easier they 

19 can start .moldihg' their minds. As was pointed out, times 

20 are developing now with automation and technological 

21 developments that most people will.be going to school for 

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the rest of their life and due to circumstances, most of 




2 


these things can be governed by laws of the Legislature. 




3 


THE CHAIRMAN: Let me request we not discuss the 




4 


school age question any more. 




5 


Mr. Clagett? 




6 


MR. CIJ^GETT: I can't skip the impression, and 




7 


I v;ould like to have it clarified, Mrs. Freed lander, 




8 


whether the gist of your dissent here wouldn't be a 




9 


matter for consideration by the Committee on Style? 




10 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: No. 




11 


THE CHAIRMAN: I would answer it goes beyond 




12 


the mere matter of style. I think the type of change 




13 


recommended by Mrs. Freedlander is greater than the Com- 




14 


mittee on Style vjould feel free to attempt. 




15 


MR. CLAGETT: Then I would ask Mrs. Bothe if 




16 


she hasn't refused the principle that the Commission is 




17 


trying to follow, short, concise, direct expression. 




18 


MRS. BOTHE: Perhaps we have, but then I think 




19 


if we are going to have an education article at all that 




20 


we are going to have to allow for some latitude in this 




21 


area because other than Section 2 which is a mandatory 






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provision everything pertaining to education is in the 




2 


way of an exhortation. Nov7, v;e have had in the Declara- 




3 


tion of Rights a statement in Section 43. V/e felt that 




4 


it was important that the State of Maryland symbolically 




5 


recognize its obligations to support education on a broad 




6 


front and that there was no other vjay to do it but through 




7 


an exhortatory passage such as the one here. We feel 




8 


it will have some explicit effect because it will be 




9 


possible in the Legislature for people to point to the 




10 


language of Section 1 and say that the Constitution de- 




11 


mands that the Legislature and the General Assembly 




12 


extend itself in support of education insofar as the 




13 


times warrant and the budget V7arrants . 




14 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 




15 


MR. SCANLAN; I think the debate is whether v/e 




16 


exhort in one section or exhort in two sections and on 




17 


that issue of this, Mrs. Freedlander has the advantage 




18 


of both terseness and lucidity. 




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I-IRS. BOTHE: I think perhaps we will have to 




20 


discuss Sections 1 and 2 together since Mrs. Freedlander 's 




21 


dissent does go to the question of whether they should be 






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placed in one paragraph. 






2 


THE CHAIRI-IAN: V7ell, let's confine, we haven't 






3 


a motion right nov7, let's confine the discussion for the 






4 


moment to Section 1. 






5 


Mrs. Freedlander? 






6 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, I V70uld like 






7 


to state that Maryland has a very good reputation for 






8 


encouraging education. In writing a Constitution in 1966 






9 


for the next fifty years, I don't think it is wise or 






10 


proper for us to be exhorting the State for doing what it 






11 


has been doing and doing admirably. If we V7ere Alaska or 






12 


Hawaii, where we were just getting started on the Consti- 






15 


tution, perhaps an exhortation V70uld be in order. I don't 






14 


think it is in order in the State of Maryland, rather 






15 


giving the Constitution, showing the Legislature that they 






16 


must provide is more in order. I would like to move as 






17 


amendment or substitute motion, what would it be? 






18 


THE CHAIRMAN: just a motion right now. 






19 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: That the Commission adopt 






20 


Section 1 as presented in the dissenting Report. 






21 


DR. BARD: I second. 








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THE CHAIRMAN: Now we will hold that motion in 
abeyance until we have considered Section 2, discuss 
Section 2. 

Mrs. Bothe? 

MRS. BOTHE: Proposed Section 2 V70uld read: 
The General Assembly shall provide for a statewide system 
of free public schools sufficient for the education of, 
and open to, all children of school age, 

.This carries out what is now contained in 
Section 1 of Article VIII. We feel without any doubt 
that there should be a constitutional mandate requiring 
the General Assembly to provide for a free education to 
all children of school age and under the terras we use, 
they are terms of art in a sense, but V7e don't feel that 
they are litigation breeders in any V7ay, because the con- 
cept of free public schools implies it has been accepted 
as meaning the elementary school system or secondary school 
system, I think is the correct v7ord . VJe felt that the 
Section should be segregated from the intent of the section 
as expressed in Section 1 because it is a different con- 
cept. The one merely encourages the State to provide 



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1 


educational facilities on whatever terms it can to as 




2 


many people as possible while Section 2 commands the 




5 


existence of a Statewide secondary school system open to 




4 


all. 




5 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 




6 


Mr. Miller? 




7 


MR. MILLER: I would just like to hark back 




8 


to the question of children. Would your theory be that 




9 


a returned veteran of twenty-five who wanted to finish 




10 


high school would not per se have a right to go to public 




11 


school? 




12 


MRS. BOTHE: I don't believe, Congressman, 




13 


that he would have. I would hope he would be able to, 




14 


but -- 




15 


MR. MILLER: If he wasn't a veteran; he probabl> 




16 


is a veteran, he might have CI education, but suppose some- 




17 


body for some reason or other is twenty-five years old, 




18 


but they v;ant to finish high school. 




19 


MRS. BOTHE: He can finish high school hope- 




20 


fully at State expense. He is not the person who is 




21 


covered under Section 2. Now, it may be that in the next 






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100 years, mandatory education will extend from sixteen 




2 


to twenty-five, it is not inconceivable, and everyone 




3 


will have to go to school to that point, then he X70uld be 




4 


eligible and probably be a schoolboy as well. 




5 


MR. MILLER: You know our colleges and 




6 


universities have been filled with people from seventeen 




7 


to twenty-seven because of the distorted lives that our 




8 
9 


young people are living. Do we as a State V7ant to 

education 
guarantee a high school/to anybody that is reasonably 




10 


willing to do it or not? That is all I am trying to find 




11 


out . 




12 


MR. SCANLAN; We have not conceived that this 




15 


Section 2 would guarantee a high school education to every- 




14 


one if he V7as unfortunate enough to pass standard school 




15 


age without having achieved it. 




16 


MR. MILLER: VJhat is the standard school age? 




17 


MRS. BOTHE: Right now, I think sixteen is 




18 


the limit of compulsory education and high school is the 




19 


limit of free education. But this may change, up or 




20 


dovm. It is conceivable that free education will be 




21 


universally open through the coirimunity college age in the 






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foreseeable future, and it is also foreseeable that it 




2 


will be open to nursery school on the other end of the 




3 


spectrum. However, V7e wanted to leave the concept open 




4 


so that the secondary school system could be flexible. 




5 


MR. MILLER: You don't mention secondary schools 


• 


6 


MRS. BOTHE: Public schools are recognized 




7 


as being secondary schools in constitutional language. 




8 


MR. MILLER: I don't think they are frozen at 




9 


that, are they? 




10 


MRS. BOTHE: They are not frozen, but after 




11 


doing some research into the area particularly in the 




12 


old Constitution, the Committee felt that this Section 




15 


would pertain to the secondary school system of the State. 




14 


THE CHAIRMAN: You mean would include? 




15 


MRS. BOTHE: Yes, uniform, free Statewide 




16 


education to those coming within the lav7S . 




17 


MR. MILLER: Do you think it would cripple 




18 


your Section 2 if you left the word, children, out? 




19 


THE CHAIRI^IAN: And substitute what, person? 




20 


MR. MILLER: No, just all of school age. 




21 


MRS. BOTHE: I think V7e would have to refer to 


1 . 




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something because maybe people would send their dogs and 




2 


cats. 




3 


MR. MILLER: All persons or citizens or resi- 




4 


dents. 




5 


MRS. BOTHE: We like the word, children, be- 




6 


cause education is basically directed tov^ard youth and 




7 


childhood, and the importance of this Section is that 




8 


they offer an opportunity for everyone to achieve an 




9 


education during his youth. 




10 


MR. MILLER: The thing that occurs to me is 




11 


that if a twenty-year old boy, had every reason he wanted 




12 


to go to the local high school for some reason or other. 




13 


might under this be told. You are not a child; You are 




14 


too old to be a child. That is the only concern I have 




15 


that it might be negating the right of an older person 




16 


to go to a free school. 




17 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mindel? 




18 


MR. MINDEL: Congressman, I think you are a 




19 


little confused. I think you have in mind, we have in 




20 


mind a compulsory school age, but there are many, many 




21 


students of tv^enty, twenty-one and twenty- two v?ho are still 






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in high school. There is nothing to prevent their going 




2 


to high school. I think we ought to straighten out what 




3 


we mean by school age. When we talk of a compulsory 




4: 


age, that is one thing but many, many students are beyond 




6 


the compulsory age. There is nothing I knov; of that would 




6 


prevent a veteran returning from war to go back to high 




7 


school at tv;enty-one, twenty-tvjo or twenty-three. 




8 


MR. MILLER: VJe don't say anything about com- 




9 


pulsory education here. We say what the State is to 




10 


supply. 


« 


11 


THE Cl-IAIK^IAN: I take it this Article does not 




12 


deal with the subject of compulsory education? 




13 


Mr. Gentry? 




14 


MR. GENTRY: I would like to speak in favor of 




15 


the Committee draft in opposition to the motion. You've 




16 


got to look, I think, at the Sections 1 and 2. 




17 


THE CHAIRI4AN: We are not debating the motion 




18 


yet. 




19 


MRS. FPEEDLANDER: Just to reassure Congress- 




20 


man Miller, the election code which is Article 77, makes 




21 


numerous provisions for people who are overage, so to 






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1 Speak, through vocational programs and programs for 

2 the handicapped and Federal aid, and that kind of thing, 

3 so that people are taken care of in Maryland under a variel 

4 of programs . 

6 MR. MILLER: Under the statutes. We are 

6 writing the new Constitution. That is the point. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it the position of the 

8 Committee and Mrs. Bothe is that the Constitution should 

9 require the Legislature to maintain a system of free 

10 public schools for persons of school age but does not 

11 require an adult education program. It does not prohibit 

12 an adult education program. Any further questions? 

13 Comment? 

14 Mr. Clagett? 

15 MR. CLAGETT: This may be a little late because 

16 it really applies to Section 1, but I would like to ask 

17 Mrs. Bothe why the v7ord , people, is used at the end of 

18 that Section instead of citizens of this State. 

19 MRS. BOTHE: That term was chosen in reference 

20 to citizens of this State for the reason that we felt that 

21 people encompassed everything that the State could offer. 



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1 


not only to the citizens of the State but to those who 




2 


come v/ithin the purview of the educational system. We live 




3 


in a flexible society, and we felt that the General 




4: 


Assembly should provide educational facilities vjhich would 




5 


be a good credit to the State and a good part of the nation 




6 


and not merely being there for the practical use of those 




7 


V7ho were citizens. I think you run into some -- I don't 




8 


like, myself, the use of the word, citizens of the State, 




9 


because it implies that the State has extra-territorial 




10 


interest. I like the word, people, because it primarily 




11 


includes those who are residents of the area and those 


4 


12 


who are employed here and doesn't preclude an interest 




15 


in the rest of the world, and I think in education this is 




14 


important. 




15 


THE CHAIPnMAN: Do not the education laws apply 




16 


to aliens as well as to citizens? The present education 




17 


laws, compulsory education and all the rest? 




18 


MRS. BOTHE: And if we use the word, citizens 




19 


of the State, it V70uld imply the Constitution gives no 




20 


recognition to them. 




21 


MR. DELTuA : You v:ould have to change the 






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educational laws of the State to comply with people. 

MR. MILLER: You are talking about residents. 

MRS. BOTHE: There again you get into a legalis- 
tic idea because some people are residents because they 
live here or work here six months and some children, of 
course, are hither and yon with the Armed Force and people 
seems to us to be a muchbetter v/ay to express the inten- 
tion. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

DR. BARD: I don't v/ant to go back to Congress- 
man Miller's point, but I think it V7as much more important 
than seemed evident at the moment, and I would like to 



move -- 



motion . 



THE CHAIRl-lAN: Hold your motion. We have a 



DR. BARD: Good. Then I would like to say that 
the v7ord , children, is an important term because should 
the moment come that all of your talking about, namely 
when all of school age is to be interpreted as moving up, 
let us say, into the community college level for which there 
is no provision in here other than within that frame of 



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reference, we would run into difficulty merely because 
the word, children, had been used here, and there would 
be many who would say the Constitution does not provide 
for this. 1 have another statutory possibility. I see 
no reason V7hy we can't say, all of the school age, no 
matter v;hich particular form V7e adopt, whether it be 
Mrs. Freed lander 's or the Committee's proposal. So I am 
suggesting and perhaps a motion is in order later on that 
this matter of children is not a perfunctory term. Those 
of us who V7ork V7ith youiig adults knovj that it conies up 
over and over again when V7e get before legislative bodies 
in respect to V7hether the Constitution did have this 
sort of thing in mind. 1 V70uld propose the deletion of 
that word . 

THE CH/\IKL-1AN: Mr. Bond? 

MR. BOND: I V70uld like to ask the mover of 
the motion if she would accept the substitution of the 
V7ord , people, for the v7ord , citizens, in the next to last 
line . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get that as a separate 
motion, if you don't mind. 



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MR. SCANLAN: I believe Mrs. Freed lander does 
have, citizens of the State. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry. I thought you v;ere 
talking about the same point as Dr. Bard. Any further 
questions as to Section 2? 

MRS. BOTHE: I v/ould like to make a brief 
comment on Dr. Bard's remark. If the V70rd , children, 
were struck, school age being the vjide open term that it 
is, it would be conceivable that anyone could say that 
I am school age. We are all school age in this room if 
there isn't some qualification, I think many of us are 
taking courses in schools and consider ourselves suscep- 
tible to public education. 

THE CHAIPxI>IAN: Judge Adkins? 

JUDGE ADKIHS: A relatively minor point, but 
in Section 2, it seems to me the responsibility sought 
to be iir.posed in that Section should be imposed on the 
State and not the General Assem.bly. It is not the 
responsibility of the General Assembly. It is the respon- 
sibility of the State of Maryland acting through the 
Governor and the General Assembly. I v7ould suggest the 



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words, General Assembly, be stricken. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The suggestion is that Section 
2 be changed by substituting the v;ords, State, instead 
of, General Assembly. 

MRS. BOTHE: V7e did consider that; hov;ever , 
we thought the General Assembly language was stronger 
because it commanded the General Assembly to appropriate 
funds. VJhere V7e use the word, State, in proposed Section 
1 because in that instance nobody is being told that 
they have to do anything., but we deliberately use the 
General Assembly in Section 2 because it left no doubt 
that at each session there would have to be funds made 
available for the maintenance of the free public school 
system. / 

THE CHAIRl-IAN: Any further question? I will 
come back to you, Judge Adkins , if you want to make a 
motion. 

MR. SAYRE: There seemed to be a question on the 
use of, children. The Civil Service, Social Security and 
Veterans Administration all use the v7ord , children, betv7een 
eighteen, twenty-one, tv7enty-two , or eighteen, tv/cnty- 



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1 


three. I think there is enough precedence for that term 




2 


v/here it should not pose any problem. 




5 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? 




4 


MR. CIAGETT: I have some question in my mind 




5 


whether it is really advisable to provide for tv7enty"five 




6 


year olds being mixed up v/ith twelve and fifteen-year olds. 




7 


THE CHAIRMAN: May I suggest there is going 




8 


to be a motion, and V7e hold the discussion until the 




9 


motion? Any other questions on this Section. \le \jill 




10 


consider the motion of Mrs. Freedlander. 




11 


Mr. Bond suggested that you might substitute 




12 


for the v7ord, citizens, the word, people. 




13 


JUDGE ADKINS: I would like to offer an amend- 




14 


ment that the words, General Assembly, be stricken and the 




15 


V7ord , State, inserted. I would propose it as an alternate. 




16 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: I do not accept. 




17 


THE CHAIRMAN: In order to move more briskly, 




18 


would you be agreeable we have that as a separate motion? 




19 


JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 




• 20 


THE CHAIRl-l^AN: Mr. Scan Ian? 




21 


MR, SCANLAN: I don't suggest proper parliamentf 


ry 




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1 


procedure, but it seems to me that Judge Adkins ' motion 




2 


is to amend the pending motion. 




5 


THE CHAimAN: He is entirely in order, but 




4r 


I suggested \je make better time if we do it in a differ- 




5 


ent v;ay. Split it as a separate motion after we act on 




6 


this. 




7 


Mr. Delia? 




8 


MR. DELIA: Mr. Chairman, I am a little con- 




9 


cerned about changing the v7ord , citizen. 




10 


THE CHAII^^AN: You can debate that on the 




11 


motion. The mover has made the change at the moment. 




12 


Any further comment as to the motion? The motion now 




15 


before us is a motion to eliminate Section 1 and to 




14 


amend Section 2 by adding to Section 2 as it appears on 




15 


Page 15, the phrase, and shall also provide for such 




16 


other public educational institutions as may be desirable 




17 


for the intellectual, cultural and occupational develop- 




18 


ment of the people of this State. Any discussion? 




19 


Mr . Gentry? 




20 


Just a moment. Mrs. Freed lander, as the mover. 




21 


you have the opportunity to open the debate. 






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1 MRS. FREEDLANDER: No, sir. 

2 MRS. BOTHE: Do I understand that the amendment 

3 was merely, people, period; or people of the State? 
4: MRS. FREEDLANDER: People of the State. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: People of the State. 

6 Mr. Gentry? 

7 MR. GENTRY: I speak in favor of the Committee's 

8 draft. I think it is necessary to consider Section 1 

9 and 2 together in looking at the Committee's draft and 

10 realize v;hat the purpose of the, of these tv;o together 

11 are. Certainly, if you look back at the old Article VIII, 

12 which started out. The General Assembly at its first 
15 session after the adoption of this Constitution, shall 

14 set up a system of education. It would be inappropriate 

15 now that \ie have this long standing system to use such 

16 language as that. Hovjever, we felt that education was a 

17 matter of such importance, perhaps the most important 

18 govermnental function, certainly the most important V7hen 

19 it comes to spending, that inasmuch as education does 

20 occupy this position, V7e felt it v^as worthy of some 

21 general language although it departs from the terseness 



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and conciseness and what have you. We felt by stating 
first the general overall outlook in Section 1 and then 
moving into the specific operation in Section 2 that v/e 
were recognizing education, giving direction to the State 
^ to the General Assembly as to v7hat the overall purpose 
" is, V7hat the constitutional mandate would be in general 
' terms. We would want to set up a system that would 
^ develop the intellectual and cultural aspects of the 

people generally and move to the specifics that they should 
have a State system of free public education for children 
of school age. In this fashion by moving to the, from 
the general into the specific, V7e felt that certainly it 
•^^ accomplished the overall purpose which is not in the 
"'•^ draft vjhich is offered in substitution, because there you 

do just the reverse. You move from the specific, the 
"*-^ operation of the free public school system into the gen- 

''■' eral, the further operation of the other education for 

1 ft 

purposes other than the school children. I feel that 

having v7orked on it for many, many v?eeks and looked at 

several drafts, that the draft v^hich is nov7 offered by 

the Committee is by far the best. 



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11 
12 



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20 
21 



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^ THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: Recalling the eloquence of 

3 Mr. Case at one point V7hen V7e v/ere dealing V7ith the 

^ Declaration of Rights and we had the alignment of Mr. 

5 Gentry and Mr. Case, it V70uld be most interesting to see 
" hov7 Mr. Case votes as a comparison here, because there is 
''' the flavor in Sections 1 and 2 of something which he was 
exhorting upon us back there at the time of the Declara- 
^ tion of Rights . 
^^ ' THE CHAIRl'IAN: Mr. Sayre? 

^■^ MR. SAYRE: The question that I would like 

clarified by the Committee -- when we talk about a system 
^^ that doesn't preclude plural, does it? We could have two 

•'•^ systems and so forth? Then, I am asking you, Leah, on 
^^ this part v^here you say, shall also provide for other 
"^° public institutions, that is almost as if you have taken 
^' it out of the system, 

^^ MRS. FREEDLANDER: The first part is free pub- 

•'■^ lie systems, elementary and secondary schools. The 

second part provides for adult education, anything that 
V70uld apply to other than children of school age as we 

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1 know it under the existing Code. 

2 MR. SAYI^ : If V7e made a correction and said, 

3 persons, plural, or something, and your problem there is, 
^ you have something that is not necessarily free, or 

5 tax supported, is that it? 

6 MRS. FREEDLANDER: As I said in the commentary, 

7 it could be partly State supported and partly by people, 

8 but it is not free public school. 

9 MR. SAYRE: So that is the distinction. 

10 MRS. FREEDLANDER: The distinction is free 

11 public education in the first Section referring to what 

12 we commonly think of as the public school, and any other 

13 institutions that the State may wish to devise that V7e 
1^ may not think of at this time, it gives them a broad 

15 grant to do V7hatcver else they v/ant. 

16 MR. SAYI^ : Outside of being totally free. 

17 That is the distinction. That is all we are talking about 

18 isn't it? 

19 THE CHAIM'IAN: Don't get back to the question. 
Make your point, and we will move on. 

MR. SAYRE: If that is the one point, perhaps 



20 
21 



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^ that could be better clarified. That is all I am saying. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

3 MR. SCANL-AN: It might be illuminating to de- 
^ bate this. I said despite the illuminating debate, this 
5 comes down to the question of whether you state something 
^ in one paragraph or two paragraphs . 

'^ THE CHAIK'IAN: Mrs. Bo the? 

Q MRS. BOTHE : I would like to re-emphazise some- 

^ thing Mr. Gentry just said, and that is that in the 
^^ proposed substitution, the other educational operations 
■'•■'■ of the State are placed on the secondary basis. Dr. 

Bard asked me did the Committee specifically mention the 
^^ community colleges. V7e declined to do this, because V7e 
^^ did not want to stigmatize particular forms of other 

^^ education V7hich V7e hope the State v/ill expand and con- 
tinue to offer indefinitely, but V7e also did not feel that 
^^ they should be an afterthought of the secondary school 

^^ system. We felt that this other process which in scope 

may soon be greater in terms both of pupil numbers and in 
expenditures, exceed the secondary school system, that it 
V7as deserving of separate and distinct recognition in the 



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Constitution and that it should not be an appendage to 




2 


the old~fashioned secondary school system. 




5 


THE aiAIRiMAN: Any further discussion? Ready 




4 


for the question? The question arises on the motion to 




5 


delete Section 1 to amend Section2 by adding to it at the 




6 


end, the clause, and shall also provide for such other 




7 


public education institutions as may be desirable for the 




8 


intellectual, cultural and occupational development of 




9 


the people of this State. All those in favor, please 




10 


signify by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion is 




11 


carried, 15 to 6. Judge Adkins , I recognize you to make 




12 


your motion. 




13 


JUDGE ADKINS: I say remove the words, General 




14 


Assembly, be stricken; and the v7ord , State, be inserted. 




15 


THE CHAIRMAN: May I suggest that you want to 




16 


state or say the State may provide by law? 




17 


JUDGE ADKINS: I will accept that. 




18 


MR. SAYRE: I second. 




19 


JUDGE ADKINS: I have no desire to speak. 




20 


THE CHAIRi'IAN: Mrs. Bothe? 




21 


MRS. BOTHE: I vjas v7ondering whether the 






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52 



addition of the words, by law, might not get us into the 
problem that v;e discussed at the July meeting which V70uld 

£, be that thcT GiSneral Assembly 'might have to provide for 

4 other education as well as for the secondary schools? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: By law is only in the first 

6 clause. 

7 DR. BARD: Put in a semicolon. 

8 THE CHAIPx>IAN: Mr. Clagett? 

9 MR. CLAGETT: That substitution reads rather 

10 poorly. The State by lav; shall -- 

11 THE CHAIRI^IAN: No, no the State shall provide 

12 by law. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: For what? 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: For a Statewide system. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: You still got too many statements 

16 mixed up in there . 

17 MR. SCANLAN: No, that distinguishes it. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I am not debating the necessity. 

19 I am debating what V7e are really trying to accomplish. Is 

20 there anything to be accomplished by the change? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I will leave that to Judge Adkins 



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JUDGE ADKINS: VJell, I think there is this to be 
accomplished, but I don't think this responsibility, as 
I said, should be imposed on the General Assembly. It is 
not a sole function of the Legislature. It is the res- 
ponsibility of the elected officials of the State of 
Maryland and should not be put solely on the General Assem- 
bly. It is equally, if no more so, the responsibility of 
the Chief Executive. 

MR. CLAGETT: VJe have made it his responsibility 
in the budget provisions, so V7hy keep on saying so? 

THE CHAIP^MAN: I suppose Judge Adkins ' answer 
V70uld be that the Governor has a responsibility for the 
passage of legislation in almost the same vjay as the 
Legislature , 

Mrs. Freedlander? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER; Mr. Chairman, I feel that if K7e 
believe in the separation of powers, there are certain 
times in this Constitution where V7e should mention the 
Governor shall and certain times V7hen we should mention 
the General Assembly shall, and in each instance, the 
General Assembly must through appropriations through the 



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provisions V7e adopted yesterday, does in fact, appropriate 




2 


money and without the General Assembly, it couldn't begin 




3 


at all and without the Governor it couldn't begin. So I 




4 


feel it is self-evident and furthermore, we do have the 




5 


precedent in the existing Constitution, it does say the 




6 


General Assembly, and I think we ought to continue that. 




V 


THE CHAIRMAN: Section 1 as just deleted said 




8 


the State. 




9 


Mr. Scanlan? 




10 


MR. SCANIJiN: If V7e are going to elevate here 




11 


the right of education to a Constitution right, it should 




12 


be a right that holds in the State as a v-7hole and not 




13 


just any particular branch of the Government. On that 




14 


grounds, I support Judge Adkins ' motion. 




15 


MRS. BOTHE: I see at least one Member of the 




16 


Committee won't go along V7ith me, but since her substituted 




17 


amendment has been adopted, I would feel that the State 




18 


is the better term. 




19 


THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette? 




20 


DR. BURDETTE: I V70uld like to suggest that 




21 


the V70rd , State, has additional advantages. I rather 






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feel there is an implication if the General Assembly had 




2 


the responsibility for the language of the Constitution, 




3 


you might also consider that the Governor and other State 




4 


agencies conceivably even educationally, had only an 




5 


advisory right in the matter as passed by the General 




6 


Assembly, and it is a Statewide problem. 




7 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Ready 




8 


for the question? The question arises on the motion to 




9 


further amend Section 2 as just amended by striking the 




10 


words, General Assembly, and substituting the word, 




11 


State, and after the v7ord , provide, inserting the wrods , 




12 


by law, so that the first clause V70uld read. The State 




13 


shall provide by lavj for a Statev;ide system of free public 




14 


schools sufficient for the education of and open to all 




15 


children of school age. 




16 


Mr. Burdette? 




17 


DR. BURDETTE: Did the mover include the v7ords. 




18 


by lav7? 




19 


THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 




20 


DR. BURDETTE: It struck me as odd. I v7on ' t 




21 


belabor it. 


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1 THE CHAlPvl-l\N: Any further discussion? All 

2 those in favor, signify by a show of hands. Contrary? 

3 The motion is carried, 20 to 1. 
^ Dr. Bard? 

5 DR. BARD: I would like to move that v/e delete 

6 the word, children, in the proposal. 
'^ MR. MILLER: I would second that, and the 
^ Doctor has worded my thoughts much better than I have. 
^ THE CHAIRMAN: Any statement in support, 

10 Dr. Bard? 

11 DR. BARD: Yes. I think that the word . children 
creates a good deal of confusion vjhen educators appear 

12 before legislative bodies or at the time of any hearings, 
1^ particularly as they deal with areas, the so-called gray 
15 areas that lie V7ithin the high school and beyond, because 
1^ here is V7here they get trapped, and they get into difficulty 
1''' and furthermore, the strength of the proposal that V7e have 

just adopted, and I think it is an excellent one, and it 
is broad in scope and not limited in terms of time. I 
think the word, child, can be very limiting. 



12 



18 
19 
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21 THE CHAIRI-IAN: Mr. Miller? 



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1 MR. MILT^ER: I have already expressed my views 

2 but I would like to say to my good friend, Mr. MacDowell, 

3 I am all in favor of words of art, but to me the word, 
^ child, no matter what they may consider it in some of 

5 the Federal statutes, I think the average citizen child 

6 is going to stop somevjhere between tv7enty"One ,- and I 

V wDuld hope that vie could have public school education for 

8 those older than that if there is a good reason for it. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Michener? 

10 DR. MICHENER: It is pointed out in Federal 

l-'- statutes as Congressman Miller states, child is getting 

•*-^ a broader and broader meaning. Under the Social Security 

IS Act we talk about adult children, and this could be a 

1'^ child of seventy, because they are children of some people 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond? 

16 MR. BOND: I v;ould like to comment that I dis- 

17 agree on the basic philosophy that this be mandatory 

18 to provide education for anyone other than children of 

19 school age. I mean, we have the other lav7 vjhich does. 

20 THE CMIRJ-IAN: Dr^ Burdette? 

21 DR. BURDETTE: I am not sure vjhat Dr. Bard 



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has moved . 




THE CHAIRMAN: He is moving that the word, 




children, be deleted. 




DR. BURDETTE: It seems to me Mr. Bond's ques- 




tion is talking about something else than I understood. 




It V70uld be open to all. 




DR. BARD: All of school age. 




DR. BURDETTE: So school age would be deter- 





1 

2 

3 

4- 

5 
6 
7 
8 

9 mined by the Legislature, is that correct? 

10 DR. BARD: That is right. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That is an easy answer, but I 

12 am not sure it is a correct answer. I think the court 

13 would ultimately determine the question and not the 

14 Legislature. The Legislature's determination might be 

15 persuasive, but it v7ould be for the court to say. 

16 MRS. FREEDLANDER: By adopting this proposed 

are 

17 motion, you/ providing for free public education for all. 

18 DR. BURDETTE: Why, if you say, all of school 

19 age 

20 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Because school age is in- 

21 determinable. The other portion of this is not free. The 



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1 other portion of this is not free. The second portion 

2 is not free, and I do not object. I favor adult educa- 

3 tion. I am a proponent of adult education, but I do not 

4 feel adult education should necessarily be free. I think 

5 some things people should pay for at least in part. I 

6 think children should not pay, but others should pay. 

7 THE CHAIR1"IAN: Dr. Bard, may I ask you a ques- 

8 tion as an educator and ask the same of Dr. Burdette? 

9 Would you consider a student in one of the professional 

10 schools at the University of Maryland, for instance, as 

11 a person of school age, the Law School, Medical School, 

12 Dental School? 

13 DR. BARD: In ansv7er to your question, I would 

14 certainly consider one in our particular school as an 

15 individual of school age, yes. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: So that the effect of your 

17 motion in your mind, then, vrould be to require the State 

18 by the Constitution to maintain a system of at least 

19 community college? 

20 DR. BARD: Might be, but not necessarily so. 

21 This offers the possibility for it to be so. As a matter 



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1 of fact, Mrs. Bothe stated a v/hile ago the desire of 

2 this Committee V7as to provide such elasticity that school 
5 age to be interpreted to mean pre-kindergarten or nursery 
^ school age. By the same token, what I am saying here is 
5 that that possibility V70uld prevail and not the necessity 
^ for providing for it. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Except that this sentence is the 

compulsory sentence, this clause I should say. Dr. Bur- 

9 dette, may I ask you the same question as an educator? 

^^ Would you consider a student in one of the professional 

■'-•'• schools at the University of Maryland as of school age? 
^^ ' DR. BURDETTE: Not necessarily. The language 

13 neans to me, you have already put up a countervailing 

1^ argument, the language means to me that a person is of 

15 an age determined to be an age to be in school by lav7. 

IS Take a person of my age in a professional school is not 

1''' a child of school age, but perhaps could be made by law. 
Anybody of any age could be of school age, it could be up 



18 



1^ to tvjentyone and after sixty, and 1 would like to get 



20 



language V7hich V70uld make it clear the Legislature could 



^1 determine the school age. 



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1 


THE CHAIpyiAN: The permissive part, I take it, 




2 


is under the second clause. The compulsory portion is 




3 


under the first clause. 




4 


DR. BURDETTE: I don't think we should have 




5 


anything in here that gives free education to people forty 




6 


years old. I don't want to prevent the Legislature from 




7 


doing that in the year 2000 if they so desire. Hov; do V7e d 





8 


that? 




9 


.. THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion or com- 




10 


ment? 




11 


MR. MILLER: The only comment I would make is 




12 


that this talks about education, but V7hat we are talking 




13 


about is elementary education, and we don't say so. 




14 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hoff? 




15 


MR. HOFF: Mr. Chairman, they are talking about 




16 


only free public schools, I believe, not professional 




17 


schools or anything of that sort. 




18 


DR. BURDETTE: Right. 




19 


MR. HOFF: Or colleges certainly couldn't be 




20 


covered by the term, free public schools. 




21 


THE CHAIPJ^LAN: Mr. Clagett? 






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^ MR. CLAGETT: Congressman Miller, vihat V70uld 

^ be the understanding if we left out the v7ord , children, 

3 and said, all of elementary school age? 

^ MR. MILLER: Suit ma fine. 

5 MR. MINDEL: I don't think so. 

^ THE CHAIRi'lAN: That V70uld eliminate all secondar 

'^ schools, high schools. 

^ Dr. Bard? 

^ Before Dr. Bard closes, I would like to make 

a comment. My initial reaction V7as that the substitution 



10 



of the word, persons, would be desirable. Listening to 
the discussion, I am very apprehensive, and I call your 
^^ attention to the fact that the first clause provides 

^^ compulsory system of free public schools. I do not think 

^^ that necessarily means a school in the sense that V7e are 
^" thinking of it today as a school for the education of 
^'^ children because V7e refer to the School of Law, the School 

^° of Dertistry, the School of Pharmacy, the School of Medicine 
and many other schools, and we also have elaborate educa- 
tional programs for adults. I V70uld fear that if you left 
out the word, children, or put the word, persons, in place 



19 

20 
21 



y 



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1 of children, you V70uld be requiring the State to maintain 

2 a system of free public schools for all persons of what- 

3 ever age the courts might ultimately determine would be 
4: within the meaning of the term, school age. I point out tc 

5 you the second clause which is not mandatory but perrais- 

6 sive, and a little more than permissive, gives ample pov7cr 
V to the Legislature to provide for adult education or free 

8 professional school education, but does not compel it. 

9 Dr. Bard? 

10 DR. BARD: We have talked a good deal about 

H the fact that this particular Section should have the 

1^ elasticity so that there v;ould be the possibility of pro- 

13 viding for very young children, perhaps even those of 

1^ tv70 or three years of age, and I think by deleting the 

15 word, children, and putting the emphasis on, school age, 

16 so this might be interpreted as the Legislature so finds 

17 necessary in the terms of the times, and ray o\<m feeling 

18 as an educator is that this whole phrase, school age, is 

19 being reinterpreted almost daily, certainly yearly, that 
giving it that elasticity is highly important. 



21 THE CHAIK'IAN: Dr. Burdette? 



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1 


DR. BURDETTE: Couldn't V7e solve this problem 




2 


somev7hat by taking out the vord , by lav;, after, provide, 




3 


and put in, education and open to all of school age, as 




4 


provided by law? Does that help it so that the school 




5 


age could be provided by law? 




6 


THE CHAIP2>1AN: It V70uld help it, but I think 




7 


it might have other adverse effects. 




8 


MRS. BOTKE: It V70uld take the whole mandate 




9 


out of meaning. 




10 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. 




11 


THE CHAIR14AN: All right, the question arises 




12 


on the motion to delete from the first clause the word. 




13 


children, so the first clause as amended v70uld read, The 




14 


State shall provide by lav7 for a Statewide system of free 




15 


public schools sufficient for the education of and open to 


1 


16 


all of school age. All in favor, signify by a shov; of 




17 


hands. Contrary? The motion is lost, 4 to 19. Is there 




18 


any further motion with respect to Section 2? Section 3. 




19 


I am going to suggest that Section 3 be presented by the 




20 


Chairman of the Committee and that we then take a coffee 




21 


break before discussion. 






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1 MRS. BOTHE: I will read it. Section 3. 

2 The Coiranittee proposes that a new Section be 

3 added to the Maryland Constitution covering an area that 
4: has not heretofore appeared there and that it read as 

5 follows: The University of Maryland shall be managed by 

6 the Regents of the University of Maryland in accordance 

7 V7ith law, and the Regents shall have exclusive general 

8 supervision of the institution and the control and direc- 

9 tion of all expenditures from the institution's funds. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Make your presentation. 

11 MRS. BOTHE: I have quite a bit of assistance 

12 here, v;ho are more articulate than I am on the subject. 

13 I will present the Committee's thinking on the subject. 

14 The University of Maryland, as v7e all are av/are, is one 

15 of the nation's outstand5.ng schools of higher education. 

16 It is one of the oldest universities -- can you hear me? 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, Mrs. Bothe. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: We have entered on the Committee 

19 into a tremendous amount of discussion and debate to come 

20 up with this decision to present to you this proposed 

21 Section v?hich \70uld grant autonomy to the University of 



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Maryland. When I use the word, autonomy, I do not mean 
it in its strict legal sense. It has been refined and 
defined in our Report by the actions of the General 
Assembly in previous , in the Autonomy Act and does not 
mean that the University of Maryland v70uld become i-- 
separate and independent of State government, but it does 
mean that the University of Maryland which nov; is under 
a statutory provision has control and direction of its 
oym internal affairs and the expenditure of its ovm funds, 
would have that secured in the Constitution of the State. 
Nov;, I refer to the constitutional, the statutory autonomy 
of the University, and I believe, though I am sure, 
all Members of the Commission have not b^ an opportunity 
to go through the various materials V7hich V7ere sent out 
to you in order to aid you in making this determination. 

This is a copy of the Autonomy Act appended to 
the letter dated June 23, 1966 to Judge Walsh from 
Dr. Elkins, the President of the University, and it is 
essentially the recommendation of the Committee that this 
be codified in the Constitution or that a similar security 
be granted to the University. We regard this recommendatic 



n 



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as a very progressive and enlightened step. Perhaps if 
adopted by the Convention, this might be the most substan- 
tial and meaningful change in the present Constitution. 
^ It would not just be a housekeeping measure, but a means 
5 of assuring the present eminence of our State University 
^ v^hich has very rapidly developed in large part because 
'^ the Legislature had seen fit to give it the independence 
Q with v.'hich to develop. 

^ The University of Maryland , as we have come 

to understand it in our study of it for the purpose of 
•^^ this recommendation, is a rather unique function of State 
"^^ government. It is almost impossible to parallel it with 
12 the standard branches of government. It is extremely 
^^ large. It has expenditures greater by far, for instance, 

15 than the Judicial Branch of the Government. Its effect on 
IS the citizens of the State, the people of the nation in 
1'7 terms of the immense amount of research and learning under- 
1^ taken v7ithin its borders compares very favorably V7ith the 
1^ Government. I believe there are some 35,000 students 
^^ there now. 
^^ MR. CASE: 28,000. 

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1 MRS. BOTHE: 28,000 students, many of whom are 

2 engaged in graduate V7ork . It is the State's major research 

3 array and moreover, its effect goes way beyond the boundarie 
4: of the State. It is largely supported by Federal monies 

5 vjhich require that the University be able to handle them 

6 V7 ithout undue interference from State officials. The con- 
V c ept of autonomy for the State University and I might say, 

8 first of all, that the majority of State Constitutions 

9 give some recognition to their State University. I think 
10 it is some 26 that make mention of one or more of their 
H State's institutions of higher learning. 

12 Maryland, as you know, gives no recognition 

13 v;hatever in the present Constitution to any form of 
1^ education beyond the public schools or the secondary 

15 schools. There is nothing very novel and something rather 

16 backv/ard, we conclude, in Maryland's failure in its Con- 

17 stitution to give any specific recognition to its State 

18 University. The concept of autonomy being attached to 

19 the State University is also not new. We cannot say that 

20 too many States have embraced it. However, it seems to 
me the coming thing. It is a little hard also to say how 



21 



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1 


many States have it in their Constitution because the 


-4 


2 


means by which the recognition and pov7ers of the State 




3 


University are v^orded in the various State Constitutions 




4 


doesn't make it entirely clear which ones havciithe :kind fof 




5 


autonomy we propose at the University of Maryland, and 




6 


which have more or less, but some six States do seem to 




7 


provide for autonomy of a nature similar to that we have 




8 


proposed for the University of Maryland and either by 




9 


coincidence, V7e don't know v^hether or not it is a coin- 




10 


cidence, but it seems those States which do recognize 




11 


and grant constitutional pov/ers to the State University 




12 


have the superior State universities or are among those 




13 


States V7hich are just emergj.ng in the forefront of govern- 


i 


14 


ment and education do have model Constitutions. The 




15 


University of Michigan has had constitutional autonomy 




16 


since, I believe it V7as 1850, and it has not only become 




17 


an outstanding university under those controls, but the 




18 


concept has been so successful that that State has expanded 




19 


the right to all of its institutions of higher learning. 




20 


For reasons V7e have expressed elsev7here in this 




21 


Report and do not go to Section 3, V7e had felt that only 






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the University of Maryland should be recognized and granted 

2 constitutional autonomy. We feel that on a completely 

S practical basis that this v;ill be a forward step in the 

^ eJucational forefront in the State of Maryland, both in 

5 terms of its general government and in terms of its 

6 educational progress. 

V Dr. Elkins' letter is quoted at some length 

8 in our Report because at the time V7e prepared the Report, 

9 v;e were not aware that the Commission was going to be con- 
10 cerned with some of the materials that we have here. 

H But we make it, we recognize our whole Report in some res- 

12 pects runs into some of the constitutional theory that 

13 this Commission has subscribed to, and we feel that this 
1^ is an area where there must be a departure if for no other 

15 reason on strictly pragmatic grounds. We are not making 

16 this recommendation authorized to grant symbolic recog- 

17 nition to the University. We are making it because we 

18 feel a constitutional provision V7hich makes unalterable 

19 the autonomy of the Univers ity, which makes it possible 
for a university v;hich is so unique, and so far different 



20 



21 from the other areas of government, its functions that is, 



-^rt— e-a^—e n ly flourish an d r - 'r o cnor \ Ht h o co n stitution a-l 

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^ guarantee. 

'^ We do not feel that the budget people v7hom 

^ Mr. Case was very fond of, should have the right to deter-^ 

mine what teachers should be paid and how much teachers 
^ should be in V7hat area, v;hat a particular building should 
° be used for, or how their layouts should be constructed. 
' V7e feel this is so much a matter of expertise in an 
° area in v^hich the budgetary system is less able to 
^ cope and which the University is v:ell able to cope V7ith, 
that it ought to be afforded constitutional sanction and 
that the University ought to be guaranteed that it v/ill 
not suffer undue interference from the State. 
■^^ The University has had the experience of auton- 

omy since 1952 and as far as v/e V7ere able to discover, it 
^^ has not resulted in any disorder, it has not resulted in 
^^ any misappropriation or misuse of funds. To the contrary 

''■' it has enabled the University to develop freely and to 
grow in a manner which vze feel it could not, if it V7ere 



10 
11 
12 



18 



constantly the subject of interference by officials of the 

20 

State. We think it should be kept in mind that actually 

21 

the need for autonomy is one which the Government created 

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1 rather than the University. As we understand it, the 

2 University had autonomy. It is a land grant college and 
5 x-as ruled by its Board of Regents and this predated the 

4: Budget Bureau and the tremendous grov7th of centralized 

5 bureaucratic services. What V7e are seeking to do, in 

6 effect, is to get back to the University or to guarantee 

7 to it V7hat it traditionally has had during the 150 years 

8 of its existence. 

9 We feel that this is an extremely important 
10 measure to be taken by the Constitutional Convention. 
11- Mr. Case has been a Member of the Board of Regents, is 

12 perhaps much more familiar vs-ith the inside workings of the 

13 statutory autonom.y, and we were treated to a number of 
1^ examples of the necessity for it. For instance, I think 

15 one example that Mr. Case will recite involves some 

16 intricate research machinery that there V7as a conflict as 

17 to nobody v7ho knew how to work it, did they? 

18 MR. CASE: No. 

19 MRS. BOTHE : And an issue arose as to whether 

20 the experts at the University should decide what kind of 
machinery to purchase. So V7e don't think this is the kind 



21 



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3 



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5 

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of thing that should be permitted to happen in the State. 
Once the funds have been appropriated, we keep in mind, 
not me, the University or the Committee or anyone else 
proposes that the University be given a free hand with 
the State's Treasury. The issue involved here is siniply 
who is going to watch what funds are allocated and how 
they can be best met to meet the needs of the State's 
only university, and one of the major ones in the country. 

THE CHAIEM/\N: Thank you, Mrs. Bothe . Before 
we take the coffee break, let me just say this, so you 
can be thinking about it. From comments and discussions 
I have heard, there are at least four and maybe more 
points of view that various Members of the Commission 
want to express and to have votes on. They include the 
Committee's recommendation for autonomy of the University 
of Maryland, opposition to University of Maryland, or 
any other group, broadening the Committee's provision to 
include autonomy, not only for the University of Maryland, 
but also for Board of State Colleges, and I .gather for 
certain other colleges, how far I don't know; and fourthly, 
to include the public school system or at least the Board 



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1 of Education and the State Superintendent of Education. 

2 I don't know how we can quite fairly put up all 

3 of these propositions but certainly we will endeavor to 
^ have everybody who wants to have a vote on any of them 

5 have the opportunity to do so. In order to do it, V7e 

6 will have to proceed as orderly as possibly. We will have 
V to follow the rules of debate of which I remind you each 

8 person on each motion speaks but once except the mover and 

9 Speaks for not more than three minutes and the mover closes 

10 So if you v;ant to speak on any of these pro- 

11 posals, and I gather many of you do, if you V7ill utilize 

12 the tim.e of the coffee break to formulate your thoughts 

13 so you can state them succinctly and briefly. 
14r MRS. BOTHE : I did not make any comment on the 

15 Coircnittee's recomiriendatiors, negative recommendations 

16 because it V7as my understanding that you vjanted us to go' 

17 through the positive proposals. Of course, if a motion 

18 is made on the subject of other institutions' recognition, 

19 I would v;ant to present the Committee's views. 

20 THE CHAIRM/vN: Mr. Clagett? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: V7ill we be able to question on 



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1 points of information? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: As we come back, the first thing 
5 will be questD-ons. Just ask the questions, and after 

^ that, V7C will take up the motion. 

5 Dr. Jenkins? 

6 DR. JENKINS: I would propose an amendment to 

7 include the State colleges, but in the interest of time, 

8 it would be better to withhold that until we dispose of 

9 the recommendation of the University of Maryland; do you 

10 concur with that? 

11 ' THE CHAIRMAN: Whether you take that first or 

12 not, I don't know. We will have to see hov? the debate 

13 develops, but you will have the opportunity to make the 
1^ motion. 

15 Mr. Sayre? 

16 MR. SAYRE: Does this phrase --• 

17 THE CHAII^MAN: Don't ask questions now, ask 

18 them after the coffee break. 

19 MR. SAYRE: This relates to something that is 
or has not incorporated. VJhen we say, managed by the 



20 



21 Regents, in accordance V7ith law, does that include hov? 



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they are appointed? 

MRS. BOTHE: There is an explanation of that. 
"^ THE CHAIRMAN: Let's hold the questions un-til 

after the coffee break except questions as to procedure. 

(At this time a short recess was taken.) 

THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions as to 
the recommendation of the Commission V7ith respect to Sec- 
tion 3? Questions only at this period, please. 

MR. SCANLAN: Several tijmes during the course 
of the presentation, Mrs. Bo the used the v7ord , autonomy, 
and yet I don't think ever explained the sense in which it 
was intended, not that the V70rd is used in the proposed 
Section 3, but apparently the legislative intention 
behind it is to grant autonomy. Autonomy to me, means 
self-governing in all respects, and I \7anted to know if thi 
was the meaning the Committee had in mind. 

MRS. BOTHE: It was not. VJhenever the Committee 
uses the word, put the word in quotation marks. V7e use 
it as a convenience because V7e certainly do not mean that 
the University shall have absolute control over its 
finances and operations. What we mean, V7e tried to explair 



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1 beginning on Page 16 of the Report in the commentary 

2 accompanying the proposed language. We mean the Legis- 

3 lature woulcl have the authority to implement the consti- 
4: tutional provision which says the Regents shall have 

5 exclusive general supervision of the institution and 

6 control and direction of all expenditures, that the 

7 Legislature shall have power to implement this by legis- 

8 lation, and vje can see that the legislation V70uld be along 

9 the lines of the present Autonomy Act vjhich gives the 

10 University independence of State departments but requires 

11 possible audit, which requires that several employees be 

12 within the merit system and various other restrictions 

13 of that kind. Now, there is one -- the amendment to the 

14 Autonomy Act, and it is called properly the Autonomy Act 

15 V7hich was passed, I believe in 1964 pertaining to the 

16 Catonsville campus of the University is what we feel would 

17 be abrogated by this provision. 

18 In 1964 the Legislature passed an amendment to 

19 the Autonomy Act so that purchases made for the University 

20 ■ are made through the State purchasing department. If 

21 this Section 3 v^ere in the Constitution, it is our opinion 



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1 that that particular amendment would be unconstitutional. 

2 However, the balance of the Autonomy Act as we now have 
it and similar provisions to those v^hich are contained 

4r in it would be perfectly proper for the Legislature to 

5 pass, and of course, the University would be subject to 

6 the Legislature vjhen it came time for appropriations. It 

7 would have no firsthand grab in the State Treasury and 

8 could be made to give an account of its funds. The 

9 proposition is merely that after the funds are appropriated 

10 the University has internal control and management and 

11 determination of how its funds are to be spent. 

12 ' THE CHAIRI4AN: Any further question? 

13 MR. SCANLAN: The phrase as used, the University 
I'i of Maryland shall be managed by the Regents of the Univer- 

15 sity of Maryland in accordance with law, suppose the 

16 General Assembly could pass a law to put aside for a moment 
IV the Fourteenth Amendment objections to it, should pass a 

18 law providing that Freudian psychology shall not be 

19 taught in any public institutions in this State. Under 

20 Section 3, would such a statute be unconstitutional, or 

21 would the Board of Regents be forced to observe the 



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1 legislative command? 

2 MRS. BOTHE: We would say it would be uncon- 
5 stitutional because Section 3 must be read as a v7hole. 
^ The latter portion grants the Regents exclusive super- 

5 vision. We v\70uld feel that any invasion of the curriculum 

6 V70uld be unconstitutional. 

V MR. SCANT-ivN: So the phrase, in accordance 

8 with law, does not mean very much? 

9 MRS. BOTHE: It means that reasonable safe- 

10 guards before and after the appropriation shall be made. 

11 MR. SCANLAN: This is one before. 

12 MRS. BOTHE: Not with curriculum. They 

13 couldn't constitutionally pass a lav7 such as we have 

1^ expressed it. However, they could pass a law saying that 

15 the University shall place all of its funds in the State 

16 Treasury. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: But they pass the laws saying that 

18 employees of the State of Maryland must take a loyalty 

19 oath. 

20 MRS. BOTHE: Possibly no. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: These are irriportant matters. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't discuss. Just ask the 

^ questions at this point. Any further questions, Mr 

3 Scanlan? 

^ MR. SCANLAN: Not at the moment. 

5 THE CH/.IPJMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

^ MR. CLAGETT: Article 11 dealing with political 

'^ subdivisions, the General Assembly has the pov?er to 

create, abolish and so forth, and we mandate political 

^ counties, cities and so forth. We do provide for other 

•'■^ political cities. Is that a group that would come within 

^^ that classification, other civil divisions? 
^^ MRS. BOTHE : You are speaking now of the other 

13 recommendations of your Committee. 

^^ MR. CLAGETT: Here is my question basically: 

13 Are we here mandating a form of civil division in addition 
to counties and cities as provided for in Article 11. 



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oranges. We are mandating a form of division, but it is 



l^ not anologous to the political subdivisions of vjhich 



you are speaking. It is not a political subdivision. It 



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MR. CLAGETT: Going back to the question 
Mr. Scanlan asked a moment ago insofar as political 
subdivisions or other divisions, whatever definition 
may be given in the future to that, they are subject to 
general lav? and as I understood your answer in reply to 
his question here, you V70uld not be subject to general 
law, it vjould be unconstitutional. I don't quite under- 
stand that. 

MRS. BOTHE: I am not quite sure 1 understand 
your question. I don't feel there is any analogy between 
the establishment of the University and these various 
political subdivisions vjhich v;ill be established as the 
government of the people civilly and generally. This 
V70uld be a constitutional bait; so to speak, but not a 
government or area of government . 

MR. CL/.GETT: How does it differ from an 



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authority then? 


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MRS. BOTHE: You have a number of parallels, 


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both V7ith an authority and V7ith a political subdivision. 


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However, the fact is, it would have some analogous pov7ers 


21 


and Vvould not make it in conflict either V7ith the balance 




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•^ of the Constitution or with the other powers of govern- 
^ ment. V7e are not suggesting, for instance, that if a 
^> student on the campus at the University of Maryland com- 
^ mits a crime that only these powers that be are the 
5 University and should try and punish him for it. We are 
^ merely speaking of the operation of the University per 
' se , and I don't see that there is any conflict between 
° our proposal and those of the Government and the various 
^ civil subdivisions of the State. 

MR. MILLER: Along the line Mr. Clagett was 
saying, this being in the Constitution, you do not feel 
it would carry police pov7ers with it? 
'^^ MRS. BOTHE: No. 

^^ MR. MILLER: Why not? 

^^ MRS. BOTHE: The povjers granted are general 

^" supervision of the institution and control of the expen- 
^' ditures. It has nothing to do with the general civil law. 
They are not creating a separate state. They are creating 
■^^ an institution v/hich is given certain constitutional 

pov7ers as is done in many other parts of the Constitution. 

21 

MR. MILLER: My reason for asking it, I went 

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•*• to a university at one time vThere the charter antedated 

^ that of the State and the police and the city could not con 

5 in and make an arrest because it was off limits. Are v;e 

trying to create something like that in this cons t itut ion- 
^ al autonomy they are getting? 

^ MRS. BOTHE: Not at all. I assume you are speak 

' ing of a private university which is on private property 

and V7hich the State couldn't enter on the property. 
^ MR. MILLER: The grant came from the king as 

I remember it, and the State didn't have any say about it. 

MRS. BOTHE: If a student doesn't keep proper 
hours in the dormitory, this V70uld be the pov;er to dis- 
^"^ cipline him with the University exclusively. However, if 

the student rapes a girl in the next dorm, this is not 
^^ within the province of the University. 

^^ THE CHAIRI-IAN: Judge Adkins? 

^"^ JUDGE ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, if I understand 

the import of this Section, the residual control that the 
people of the State would reserve to themselves would be 
basically the power of appropriation. I wonder if 
Mr. Case or Mrs. Bothe V70uld comment on a little bit of 



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1 the budget making procedure in relation to appropriations 

2 and Specifically direct their attention to whether or not 

3 appropriations once made by the Legislature for a pre- 

^ scribed program V70uld then be subject to the complete con- 

5 trol of the Board of Regents without reference to the 

C program which was proposed at the time of the adoption. 

*? That is a lot of words, but what I am trying to say is, 

8 can they divert the funds? 

^ MR. CASE: I think to answer, I ought to give 

•^^ the Commission some insight as to just v/hat happens and 

^^ how the University's budget is made up, and then what 

^^ happens after it is passed by the Legislature. 
13 The first step, of course, is the meetings held 

^^ with the President, members of his staff and the depart- 

15 ment heads for the purpose of determining what would be 

16 the requirements of a given program for a given year 

1*^ and after these have been prescribed by the budget and a 

1® list is in the President's office, a budget book is com- 

1^ piled and that budget book then is submitted to the Board 
of Regents. 



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^1 The Board of Regents then holds hearings vjith 

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■'■ respect to each of the programs, generally grouped into 
^ colleges and the deans of the various colleges come 
^ before the Board and explain the budget and explain the 

^ reason for the changes, if any, and generally give an 
^ overall summary of the v7orkings of their college during 
" the year. An important thing to note is that at this 
' particular meeting the State Budget Bureau's people are 
sitting in V7ith the Board of Regents and they are asked, 
are free to ask all the questions, as a matter of fact, 
ask most of the questions to the various deans or to a 
department head if it goes that lov; vzith respect to the 
budget. 
^^ After that hearing, the Board of Regents can 

■'•^ cut or increase the budget asi they see fit, and then at 
^^ that point, it becomes the University of Maryland's 
■*-^ budget. Now, here is the big difference between the Univer 
^' sity budget and the budget of the State Department of 
•*■" Education that v;e were talking about yesterday, because 
■'■^ after that budget has been formulated, it is then sub- 
mitted to the State Department of Budget and Procurement, 
namely the Governor, and the Governor can cut it, can do 



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anything he wants, unlike the budget for the public 
schools which, of course, the Governor cannot cut, and that 
is what we voted on yesterday; and ofttimes does. We have 
had a number of instances where salaries of different 
people have been reduced against the wishes of the Board 
of Regents and this has presented problems. Now, when the 
Governor finally gets through v^hatever he is going to do 
V7ith the budget and it goes to the General Assembly, the 
General Assembly traditionally each House holds a hearing 
on the University budget; and they can cut it so that 
again for the second time, it does not have the isolation 
that the State school budget has. It is subject to 
scrutiny then by the Governor and by the Members of the 
General Assembly. 

When it finally passes, it comes out as part 
of the budget law. Nov;, here is the difference between 
the general budgets for other State agencies and the 
University of Maryland. Once the budget has become lav7, 
then the Board of Regents can spend that money within 
their discretion, and if it becomes necessary, to amend 
a program or to take on somebody or to change somebody's 



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^ salary at midterm. The University administration does 

2 not have to go back to the Governor because of the exist- 

3 ing economy in it, does not have to go back to the Governor 
■* and request these changes to be made through a budget 

5 amendm.ent v^hich is authorized by the Board of Public 

Works . 

'^ What actually happens in practice, if the 

® administration V7ants to amend the budget, it takes the 
^ matter to the Board of Regents and the Board of Regents 
goes ahead and amends the budget. I might say that in 
^ my experience, I have been on the Board six years nov7, 

"^ there has never been an amendment where a program has 
•^^ exceeded its estimate in the budget. There have been 
•^^ amendments back and forth, but there have always been 
15 shifts. You don't get the proper staff you are going to 
1^ get when the budget is made up and for some reason or 
^^ another, there will be a surplus in that program V7hich 

1° can be used in another area. But if it weren't for 
1" autonomy if a surplus developed, it V70uld revert to the 

State and V70uld have to be reappropriated through a budget 
amendment at the end of the year if there is a surplus 



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1 that surplus reverts back to the State. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: Would that be true under this 

3 proposed amendment? 

4 MR. CASE: Yes. 

6 MRS. BOTHE: I think a lot of people don't 

6 understand that once an appropriation has been made, it 

7 cannot be diverted under ordinary circumstances without 

8 a budget bill or without the permission of the Budget 

9 Bureau. In other words, if an appropriation for ten 

10 teachers of physical science has been made to the 

11 University of Maryland, and they decide that they can 

12 only hire five teachers but they would rather pay them 

13 tv7ice as much, the University of Maryland is free to 
14: spend twice as much for half the teachers without the 

15 teachers. Without the autonomy, however, they would have 

16 to go back and get authorization for this action and 

IV wouldn't be able to take it independently. It is not a 

10 question of taking money. It is a question of being 

19 able to juggle appropriations after the money is made 

20 available without surveillance from outside. 

21 MR. MILLER: In the appropriation bills are 



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there no general funds to program an institution 




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V7hich can be used v7ithout having to go back to the 




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appropriating authority, to have an amendment? 




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MR. C/'SE: There never have been, Congressman. 




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In other words, is what you are saying a general sort of 




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contingency fund that can be used for any purpose? 




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MR. MILLER: Yes. 




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MR. CASE: I haven't seen the latest draft of 




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it, but for the first time the Board of Regents requested 




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such a fund this year. 




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MR. MILLER: In the Federal appropriation, 




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within 10 per cent the head of the department can supple- 




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ment one to take out the other, V7ithin 10 per cent. 




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MR. CASE: We have no such provision. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to go back to your 




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last answer to Judge Adkins for the record, to Judge 




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you 
Adkins. He asked you if in this Section 3/v70uld make any 




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change, and you said, No change at all. I take it you 




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mean no change in the present practice but the present 




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statute is statutory. 




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procedure would be any difference. 

THE CHAIRflAN: In other words, I take it what 
you are saying is that under the Autonomy Act of 1952 
as amended, the institution now has the control and 
direction of all expenditures from the institution's funds? 

MR. CASE: That is right. 

THE CHAIRI-IAN: Can you tell us v?hether the 
language is the same? 

MR. CASE: I don't think it is quite as pre- 
cise in Article 77, Section 2A9(e) . I have it right 
before me. It is not the same language. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau? 

MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to, I guess this 
question goes more to Mr. Case than anyone else, in 
contrasting this recommendation with that vjith respect to 
the Judiciary, I am wondering v^hy you feel that it is 
necessary for the independence of the University to have 
this control over the method of spending funds once 
they are allowed for in the budget, and the University 
can then spend them for V7hatever purpose the University 
sees fit, and yet at the same time, it is not, apparently 



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1 you don't feel this is necessary to protect the indepen- 

2 dence of the Judiciary Department. I frankly am wonder- 

3 irig> I sm not sure that it is necessary for the indepen- 
^ dence of the Judiciary, yet I v7onder why you feel it is 

5 necessary for the independence of the University. 

6 MR. CASE: Well, that question, Mr, Martineau, 

7 goes to the vjhole subject of autonomy and V7hy autonomy 

8 is a desirable thing from the standpoint of the University 

9 and the difference is the difference between college 
10 professors and judges. 

H MR. MARTINEAU: I am not sure v;hat you mean 

12 by that. 

13 MR. CASE: They arc different animals, . 

14: and they have to be treated differently. You don't put 

15 birds in one kind of cage of the zoo and put gorillas 

16 in another . 

17 ^ MRS. FREEDLANDER: V/hich is v/nich? 

18 MR. MINDEL: Suppose the taking of an oath 

19 v;ere abolished. Could the Board of Regents .on its ov7n 

20 authority require an oath of those required by it? 

21 THE CHAIRI'lAN: Mrs. Bothe? 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: I V70uld think certainly they could 

2 They could impose any restrictions or conditions on em- 
5 ployment that they felt were necessary and advisable. 

^ MR. MINDEL: In reverse, you have here, there 

5 shall administer their affairs in accordance with law. 

6 If the law provides an oath, could the Regents say, VJe 
V will not require? 

8 MRS. BOTHE: If the taking of an oath by any 

9 governmental employee were constitutionally prohibited, 
10 I think that would supersede the right of any agency, 
H no matter \7hat its constitutional or statutory indepen- 

12 dence might be to override the Constitution. 

13 Section 3, I believe, Mr. Mindel, you may have 
1^ misread, because when we speak of, in accordance V7ith 

15 law, we write that in conjunction with the latter phrase, 

16 and the intention, and I believe V7e are correct in 

IV assuming that it would be so construed as that the law 

18 would be circumscribed, that the Legislature could not 

19 pass a lav; which interfered with the rights of the 

20 Regents to have these rights of general supervision and 

21 control. They could only pass lav7S which did not enter 



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•^ into this exclusive area such as for possible audit or 
^ for having employees in the merit system standard and 
^ things of that sort. 
^ THE CHAIPJ:4AN: Mr. Bond? 

MR. BOND: I would like to ask Mr. Case tv7o 
questions . 

''' First, isn't it true that other State depart 

° ments and other State educational institutions, you can 
^ adjust funds as betv/een-line items without going to the 
Budget Bureau? 
•^■^ MR. CASE: I don't know. 

^^ MR. BOND: Well, let me say this,-- 

^^ THE CHAII^'IAN: Don't comment. Just ask ques 

^^ tions at this period. 

1^ MRS. BOTHE: I could answer the question, 

perhaps, because in our discussions, we were given this 



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^' time by the State Board of Colleges an example of their 
^° problem. They are unable to hire faculty at the prices 

^^ allocated by the Budget Bureau, and yet they say they 

have excess funds. If only they could employ some of 

21 

this surplus that they can t use to increase faculty 

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1 salaries, this would improve their situation and yet 

2 they say they cannot do it without the approval of the 

3 Budget Bureau which isn't forthcoming. So apparently, 
4: in this area at least in the area of salaries, although 

5 the money is available, it cannot be diverted within 

6 the institution. 

7 THE CliAIRI-IAN: Dr. Jenkins? 

8 DR. JENKINS: The theory of the program budget 

9 is that the institution can use any money V7ithin that 

10 program v/ithout outside approval. As a matter of fact, 

11 the institution may not do that. They must advise the 

12 Budget Bureau of any change in line items and the Budget 

13 Bureau declines to permit this. In other words, you may 

14 have an appropriation for equipment. You could not then 

15 use that for supplies v7ithout the consent of the Budget 
/ 

16 Bureau . 

17 MR. SCANLAN: I got confused. Earlier Mrs. 

18 Bothe said that the University of Maryland had funds to 

19 hire ten teachers at a certain salary and decided to hire 

20 five at double the salary under the present budgetary 

21 procedures. A moment ago, you said there V70uld be money 



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1 to increase salaries but nevertheless that money couldn't 

2 be used without getting permission of the Budget Bureau. 
5 MRS. BOTHE: I was talking of the Board of 

4 State Colleges . 

5 MR. SCANLAN: I see. 

6 THE CHAIR^-IAN: Any further questions? 

7 MR, S CAIMAN : Just one more. During the course 

8 of your presentation you gave as one of the alleged 

9 reasons justifying the proposed Section 3, the fact that 

10 there are large amounts of Federal money that come to 

11 the University of Maryland and many times in connection 

12 with Federal grants there have to be a minimum of Federal 

13 and State and local restrictions. Do you have any facts 

14 that suggest that the University of Maryland has been 

15 impeded in receiving Federal grants because of any inter- 

16 ference by the General Assembly of Maryland or any other 

17 agency of the State? 

18 MRS. BOTHE: The growth of Federal grants, 

19 the larger number of grants they are getting today hove 

20 all been afforded since 1952, so it is a little difficult 

21 to give an example of vjhat might have happened had there 



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been no Autonomy Act. 

MR. SCANLAN: Then your answer so far as you 
3 personally know, there has been no interference V7ith the 
^ receipt of Federal grants due to any restrictions by the 

5 State of Maryland? 

6 MRS. BOTHE: Dr. Elkins tells us if he did 
''' not have the statutory authority he has, that he would 
^ not have been able to obtain the numbers of grants, and 

^ I think Maryland ranks something like fourth in the nation 
in grants to any universities, that he would not have 
^^ been able to receive these funds as readily as he has. 

^^ MR. SCANLAN: I V7as confused. I thought there 

13 was some present restriction that somehow impeded the 
^^ receipt of Federal grants by the University of Maryland. 

15 I gather there is none. 
1^ MRS. BOTHE: No. 

1'^ DR. BURDETTE: An amendment in 1964 excluded 



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new payment. 



1^ THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? I have 



a fev7 questions of Mrs. Bothe , just to find out the 



Committee's understanding. Under the Section, as your 

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■^ Committee proposes it, v;ould the University have complete 
^ control over the establishment of tuition, the amount of 
3 tuition? 

MRS. BOTHE: Yes. 
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Would the University, by v/hich 

® I mean the Regents, have complete control over the location 
''' of branches of the University? 

^ MRS. BOTHE: Yes, it would, subject, of course, 

^ to the Legislature's appropriation. There is a great 
^^ deal of discussion about V7hat vould happen if the Univer- 
sity didn't use the funds for the purpose represented in 
the Legislature, but I th5.nk it has to be kept in mind 
"*-^ that the University must come back every year to ask for 
"^^ more, and if they represent that they want funds to put 
*^ up a fine arts building and then put the thing do\vn in 
^^ Cumberland or something, the next time they ask for a 

-'•' building, I doubt if they V7ill be so successful. This 

1 ft 

■^° check is alv/ays there, and the likelihood of abuse from 

''• what vje understand, there has been virtually none under 

the Autonomy Act. 

DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman -•- 



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1 MR. CASE: The complete answer to that is 

2 that a university cannot build any building, can't put 
5 any branch of the university anywhere unless and until 
4: the General Assembly authorizes the capital funds for 

5 such building or for such branch. 

6 In other vrords, when V7e had the big to-do about 

7 where the branches were to be located, actually it Vy-'as 

8 not necessary to have a declaration from the Legislature 

9 that a branch should be put in Baltimore County. The 

10 Board of Regents could have sat over here in the meeting 

H room and said, We are going to put a branch in Baltimore 

12 County, but if they didn't get the necessary funds from 

13 the Legislature to buy the land and put the building up, 
I'i we have no funds to do anything like that with, so the 

15 Legislature has absolute control over the location of 

16 branches through the appropriation of capital funds. 

17 THE CHAIPxl-IAN: My next question, and I am put- 

18 ting these -- 

19 DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I was going to 

20 state the same thing Mr. Case stated. Further, the Legis- 

21 lature has the control in the succeeding year. Let's say 



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the University of Maryland found a place v^here there are 
buildings, still they come to the Legislature and this 
is not really the exclusive control that some people en- 
vision . 
5 THE CHAIRMAN; I am just trying to get the 

point in the record as to the intended meaning of these 
particular provisions. Mrs. Bothe, you said in answer 
to earlier questions that under this language you think 
the State could provide that all the University funds 
could be put in a certain bank account or subject to cer- 
tain controls. 

Did I understand that correctly? 



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^'^ MRS. BOTHE: Yes, I believe the present Auton- 

omy Act calls for deposit vv'ith the State Treasury. 

^^ THE CHAIRMAN: I am not thinking of that. I 

"I c 

am thinking of the language of the Section. Is it the 
intention of the Committee that in saying the Regents shall 
have exclusive control and direction of all expenditures 
from the institution's funds, that that is nevertheless 
subject to the povrer of the Legislature to prescribe 
safeguarding controls? 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: That is right. 

2 MR. CASE: That is the law novj. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, would the, under this 

4: language, Vv^ould the Committee feel that, and this follov;s 

5 a question of Mr. Clagett's, that if the Legislature 

6 passed a general law applicable to educational institu- 
V tions that it would or V70uld not be applicable to the 

8 University of Maryland if it dealt with the matter of, 

9 that could be within the term, general supervision of the 

10 institution? 

11 MRS BOTHE: It would not be unconstitutional. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: So the ansv^er to Mr. Clagett's. 

13 question is that the general lav? would be subject to 
14- this limitation. The final question, if, under this 

15 language, the Legislature appropriated a total amount for 

16 the Support of the University for the next year, I take 
1*7 it that the University's total funds would then be the 

18 amount appropriated plus receipts from tuition, plus re- 

19 ceipts from Federal Government, endo\vments, and so forth? 
V/ould the meaning of this last clause be that the Regents 



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1 at all, regardless of the programs that had been speci- 

2 fied? 

3 MRS. BOTHE: That is right, but probably for 
^ the one year. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

6 Mr. Haile? 

'^ MR. HAILE: I believe the Legislature has in 

^ passing on a budget bill sometimes imposed a condition 

^ before appropriating a lump sum for a program. Is it 

the intent of this constitutional provision to prohibit 

^^ that pov;er, or to withdrav? that pov7er from the Legislature? 
^2 MRS. BOTHE: I am not sure I entirely under- 

13 stand the question but if, as I understand it now under 

"^^ the Autonomy Act, if the Legislature appropriates a sum 

15 of money to the University for a given purpose, then the 

1^ University's Board of Regents determines not to use 

1'^ the money for that purpose, they are not precluded under 

1^ the Autonomy Act. 

1^ THE CHAIRi>LAN: I take it, Mr. Haile 's question 

means that if the University, if the Legislature in 
approving the budget appropriates one million dollars and 



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specifies this money shall be used only to build an annex 
to the Lav; School , his question is, could the Regents under 
this language use it for salaries, for instance? 

MR. CASE: They could not. 

THE CMIRMAN: Under this language? 

MR. CASE: That is right, they could not. 

THE CHAIRl^'IAN: Can you tell us V7hy? 

MRS. BOTHE: I am not sure under this language 
that this would be supervision of the institution and 
control of expenditures from its funds. I assume this woulld 
be a capital appropriation for a specific purpose v.-hich V7as 
not part of the general funds of the University. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, use a different illustra- 



tion. 



Mr. Haile? 



MR, HAILE: Suppose the condition of the appro- 
priation is that the President of the University's salary 
not exceed $250,000 a year. Would this prohibit any 
such condition upon the appropriation? 

MRS. BOTHE: If the Legislature passed a law 
that the University's salary couldn't exceed $250,000. 



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1 MR. IIAILE: I said imposing a condition of 

2 that nature. 

5 MRS. BOTHE: I don't know that they could im- 

^ pose a condition like that. 

5 MR. HAILE: It hos been their practice in the 

past. 

7 MRS. BOTHE: For the State? 

8 MR. HAILE: Yes. I wondered if that V70uld 
continue . 

^^ MR. MILLER: I V70uld like to understand one 

^■^ thing. You both said they might be able to do it for a 

year. Under this constitutional provision, the year 
1^ limitation is that the Legislature might not give them 

1^' an appropriation the next year, they couldn't recoup the 

15 money if the Board didn't do what they V7ere supposed to 

16 do. 

1'^ THE CHAIRxMAN: Judge Adkins? 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: Do I understand that aside from 

1^ adding constitutional status and protection, this Section 
will give the University no additional freedom of choice 
that it does not now have under the Autonomy Act? 



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1 THE CllAIRl'IAN: That is a debate perhaps. We 

2 will give you the opportunity to ask that. Any further 

3 questions? Then, V7e will proceed to debate. I am un- 
certain as to the best way to proceed. I was thinking of 

5 it during the coffee break, and it occurred to me that 

6 perhaps the best V7ay would be to consider motions to 

7 amend what is proposed by the Committee before you con- 

8 sider motions either to approve or reject. VJhat is your 

9 feeling? 

10 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, 

H in viev7 of the method by v^hich the Report has been 

12 presented and also in view of Mr. Case's com<mitment to 

13 be elsewhere and his interest in this topic, I would like 
I'i to move the adoption of Section 3 and have that matter 

15 passed upon and then have any amendments v^hich may be 

16 offered debated and acted on. 

17 THE CHAIRJ4AN: The difficulty is that some- 
it 

18 body moves to amend that by amendment, you would get/back 



19 the same v;ay. 



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21 until V7e had voted on the proposed amendment to the 



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1 draft, but to accommodate Mr. Case and not make him late 

2 for the football game, I now move that we delete Section 

3 3 in its entirety. 

4: MR. CLAGETT: Second the motion. 

5 DR. BARD: Would it be out of order, then, 

6 to move the adoption of Section 3 the proposed amendment. 

7 Is that now out of order? 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: You could move it as a sub- 

9 stitute, and I am afraid we v/ould end up spending a lot 

10 of time on voting v;hether we adopt the amendment to the 

11 substitute or whatnot. 

12 ' DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me 

13 that the basic issue presented to the CoirLmission and re- 
1^ jected, then the amendments are moot. V/e might save time 

15 by this procedure. 

16 MR. CASE: I think that is so. 

17 DR. JENKINS: I would propose if this passes 

18 that an amendment to extend this, but if this doesn't 

19 pass, there is no point in taking the time. 

20 THE CHAlRi-IAN: My only point is if anyone moves 

21 an amendment or a substitute, they will be in order, and 



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I will have to recognize them. Dr. Bard? 

DR. BARD: I so move and here is v;hat I should 
like to submit as a substitute. 

MR. BOND: Out of order. We have offered tv70 
motions, and here is a third. 

MR. SCANLAN: There is only one motion on the 
floor. 

MR. BOND: Mrs . Bothe attempted one. 

THE CHAIRjl'IAN: No, she made a suggestion. 

MRS. BOTHE:. The motion on the floor is the 
way the Conmittee would like to proceed. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me, before we consider 
any amendment or substitute and v;ithout attempting to 
rule anybody out of order, we are under pressure of 
time. I am not merely thinking of the private engage- 
ments of the Members, but of the Commission. VJe have 
three other Reports to get through this afternoon, and 
we have to eliminate if we possibly can waste motions and 
use less motions. I take it, Mrs. Bothe, that it makes no 
difference to you V7hether the debate is on a motion to 
approve or a motion to delete. 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: No. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Before we actually act on the 

3 motion, can we have or take a sense of the meeting as 
^ to whether most people v/ant to consider amendments 

5 first or not because I cannot rule out of order a motion 

6 for a substitute to an amendment, but T. V70uld assume that 

7 if the great preponderance of Members of the Commission 

8 would prefer not to consider amendments right nov;, that 

9 most Members would follow that. 

10 DR. BARD: The only thing I would like to say 

11 is that nothing has been said here this morning at all 

12 in regard to the possibility of a substitute motion which 

13 would to my mind strengthen all of the arguments that 

I'i have been proposed in favor of the motion, and therefore, 

15 it would be unfair as I V70uld see it to deal with the 

16 motion until V7e consider the possibility of strengthen- 

17 ing it. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, maybe v;e are losing 

19 more time debating procedure than to go ahead with the 

20 debate. 

21 MRS. EOTHE: One comment on the procedure. I 



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have talked to a large nuinber of the Members of the 
ConJiiission , and I am aware of their viev7S as to the de- 
bate that V7ill develop and the question of whether the 
University of Maryland does or docs not get reco.iimended 
for autonomy, and if V7e could get a vote on that subject, 
then I think we could proceed either to expand or to 
forget the balance of the discussion, because I don't 
believe there is anyone who feels that there should be 
an autonomy provision which does not at least include 
the University of Maryland. 

THE CHAIRI^IAN: V7ell, I can't rule out of 
order. I think if we don't debate the procedure and go 
ahead, we V7ill make better time. What is your substitute? 

DR. BARD: The University of Maryland shall be 
managed by the Regents of the University of Maryland in 
accordance V7ith lav7, and the public State colleges of 
Maryland shall be managed by the State Board of Trustees 
of the State colleges in accordance with law. The Regents 
and Board in both cases shall have exclusive general 
supervision of the institutions and the control and 
direction of all expenditures from the institutions', 



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plural possessive, funds. 

THE CHAIRl^IAN: Is there a second? The motion 
for a substitute fails for lack of a second. Mr. Scanlan? 

MR. SCANLAN: I believe that leaves my motion 
in the pending order of business, and may I speak to the 
raot5-on? 

THE CHAIRMAN: You may. 

MR. SCANLAN: I am very much opposed to elevat- 
ing the University of Maryland in the words of Mrs. Bothe, 
to another constitutional department. I v;ent along V7ith 
the elevation of the Public School System in effect so 
far as budgetary proceedings are concerned to a consti- 
tutional departm.ent of government. At least there, there 
was some justification. The presentation of the Committee 
this morning has in my mind, includes not a scintilla of 
justification except as Mrs. Bothe again put it, we have 
to take Dr. Elkins' v7ord for it. VJell, I don't. 

There is no evidence at all that the University 
of Maryland has not, in her own words again ,• flourished 
without constitutional autonomy. I don't dispute the 
high place the University of Maryland has achieved in the 



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•^ educational circles, but there are others that would. 
^ I realize and believe it is true that there are only four 
2 States who have elevated their universities to constitu- 
^ tional status. They are California -- and California 
S has shown that one does not escape the vicissitudes of 
" politics. In the words of Thunnan Arnold, you can never 
''' take the politics out of politics. The other universi- 
^ ties that are elevated to constitutional status are 
^ Minnesota, Michigan and Georgia. I would be one of those 
who contest the proposition that the University of Georgia 
is a first rate institution, constitutional autonomy or 
not . 

^^ The statutory autonomy under v;hich the Univer- 

sity of Maryland has flourished has worked well. Cer- 
tainly, it is alv7ays a risk that a Legislature of the 
•*-^ future might repeal it, amend it or jettison it altogether, 
"'•' but again, that is one of the risks of democracy. If 
"^ every institution or agency in this State that was afraid 
that at sometime a Legislature would act arbitrarily or 
capriciously and therefore demand constitutional protection 
V7e would have a document 100 pages long. I have seen no 



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1 evidence of the Federal programs that have been inter- 

^ fered V7ith because of any restrictions of the State. In 

3 short, as I have throughout all the meetings of this 

^ Commission, I place my trust and faith V7here it ultimately 

5 must be placed, in a democracy, in the representatives 

^ of the people, and the General Assembly of Maryland. 
''' , The University of Maryland should not be inunun- 

^ ized from future acts of the representatives of the people 
^ THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan, your time is up. 

^^ Debate. 

^^ Dr. Jenkins? 

^^ DR. JENKINS: There are two issues here, of 

^^ course. First, should the University have autonomy; and 

^^ second, if so, should this be in the Constitution? I 

^^ could give a half hour speech, but I don't have that much 

^^ time on the necessity for autonomy. We do regard educa- 

^' tion as a sacred cov; and are making something special 

^° of educational institutions here. Currently, decisions 

^^ are made by administrative officers which in the view of 

^^ almost all educators should be made at the level of the 

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I think this should be in the Constitution 
first to make it permanent and not subject to the vicis- 
situdes of political or personal fortune, and second, that 
it expresses a basic policy, the will of the people that 
the University should maintain this autonomy as defined 
at this point. 

THE CHAIRM/\N: Further debate? 

Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, and Members of the 
Commission, let m.e start out by saying that I have a great 
sentimental attachment and regard for the University of 
Maryland, although I was not an undergraduate there. ' 
My son was, though, and there is a lot of sentiment in my 
family because V7hen the college moved to College Park, 
according to their records, my great-grandfather was its 
first President; and at that time it had 100 or so acres 
of land at College Park, and its faculty consisted of- 
three professors and its student body V7as less than 300. 
It has not been in the Constitution, and it has prospered, 
and we are proud of it. But it seems to me we are getting 
far away from the original goal of this Commission, v.'hich 



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said that v;e were not going to build up a Constitution. 

We V7anted it flexible, and I, for the life of 
me, cannot see why it wouldn't be more controversial 
to have it in the Constitution and frozen. It has pros- 
pered since I859 when my great-grandfather got interested, 
but I don't see that we have a right to make it or any 
other State institution frozen into the Constitution, and 
I think we v/ill be going against all of our overall con- 
cepts if V7e begin putting individual institutions with 
extra-territorial powers into a Constitution, and I would 
therefore second entirely V7hat has been said by the 
author of this motion. 

THE CHAIPvMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

MR. GEOTRY: Speaking in favor of the continu- 
ance of Section 3, I would like to say this: That, first 
of all, we are not in any sense freezing College Park in 
the Constitution. College Park and the University are 
there and have been there many years and V7ill continue to 
be there, regardless of V7hat we will do. What we are 
doing, V7e are growing in three areas. We are giving 
exclusive supervision and control of expenditures to the 



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■'■ University of Maryland, We are limiting the management 
^ in accordance with law, areas of management which are, 
3 for instance, the possible audit and so forth, and the 
^ deposit of funds, those financial things will continue 
5 to be Supervised by the Legislature. V7e are giving the 
" supervision of the general scholastic operation of 
^ the institution to the person, to the persons, the 

° Regents , where it should properly belong and have proven 
^ themselves over a period of years. For instance, in 
""•^ the last ten years, since the Autonomy Act V7as passed, 
V7e have seen the University of Maryland stature grow 
until it nov7 is one of the leading institutions of the 
^^ nation, and I would be in favor of further enhancing that 

■'•^ position by recognizing it and guaranteeing the super- 
vision. 

^^ MRS. FREEDLANDER: As a Member of the Commission 

"'■' that proposed this, the Baltimore City Charter and the 
^° Baltimore County Charter give this kind of management 
■^^ responsibility to the Boards of School Commissions honors 
in each instance. They get money from the City and from 
the County, and they are allowed to manage their funds. 



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THE CEAIK-IAN: Dr. Bard? 

DR. BARD; Recently the State of Maryland set 
forth a concept knovm as the tripartite system of higher 
education. It made it clear that each segment of that 
tripartite system v7as intricately tied together and that 
if one portion of that segment were separated from the 
other tv70 portions, all three v;ould fall apart. 

It seems to me that to take one segment of the 
system and to set it apart is to destroy the vjhole concept 
of the tripartite arrangement which I think is basic 
to the progress of higher education in Maryland. Some of 
the arguments that V7ere set forth in regard to the needs at 
the University of Maryland hold equally true, if not more 
so, for at least one other segment of this tripartite 
arrangement in terms of the budgetary necessity and so 
forth, and in terms I might say, of enrollment and grov7th 
for this clear illustration. Let me say that over 33,000 
students V7ill be enrolled in the public State colleges. 

My point is that it is highly important that 
V7e not separate one segment of the tripartite arrangement 
and call attention to it in the Constitution and leave 



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out other segments. 

THE CHAIRIIAN: Mr. Bond? 

MR. BOND: I would like to point out according 
to Dr. Elkins' letter, there were seven States, not three, 
that have put this constitutional safeguard in. I would 
also like to say from my ovzn personal experience as a 
graduate of the Lav7 School and who V7ent to the Lav7 School 
twenty years ago V7hen the Law School was more or less 
undermined and not thought very highly of by my under- 
graduate school, only until autonomy came forth in 1952 
has the undergraduate school and the whole University 
prospered. 

I think we should continue to help the Univer- 
sity, and I see no objection to putting it in. 1 don't 
think it is a lot of putter in the Constitution. It is 
an important and integral part of the Constitution. 

THE CHAII^MAN: Dr. Burdette? 

DR. BURDETTE; Mr. Chairman, I have been very 
hesitant to speak on this. Everybody here knov/s I am on 
the Staff of the University of Maryland . I think I can 
speak by making the point I speak only for myself. I 

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speak not for the University and indeed, it is because of 
the grov;ing nature of autonomy that I can speak, perhaps, 
only for myself. I would like to broaden this discussion 
a bit by point out that in the letter which has been 
given to us addressed to Mr. Eney by Dr. Elkins on the 
6th of August, and v;hich I read for the first time last 
night, on Page 3, the second new paragraph, Dr. Elkins 
discusses what I profoundly believe is true. 

He opens it by saying the public university is 
not just another State agency. It must teach and extend 
knov7 ledge to the people by appropriate search, must pro- 
vide an open quorum and must have the freedom to learn 
what is to learn. 

Nov7, I V70uld like to speak as an individual and 
looking from the faculty point of view. Here we are on 
the cutting edge. V7e have talked about business this 
morning, I think, more than faculty members would ordinaril 
be likely to do. Let me talk about the other angle of it. 
Because there comes in society a place wherein V7e do 
differ from one another in universities, and we are free 
to do it, and I call to your attention I have differed 



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1 with Mr. Case v7ho is on our Board because I feel this 

2 great freedom in a university, he is a personal and pro- 

3 fessional friend, but I differ with him without any 

4 appreciable feeling that there may be conditions v;hich are 

5 central here to us. It may very easily be said in the af- 

6 fairs of the State that a university ought not to feel 

7 some trepidation about these matters, about when a new 

8 field of knov7 ledge needs to be investigated. Those who 

9 investigate it sometimes have to go out into new programs 

10 and nev7 activities of an intellectual character which in 

11 a State agency, to my knov7 ledge, and in the Federal 

12 Government, might be said by superiors, VJell, don't 

13 discuss that. I can frankly say one of the reasons I 

14 left the Federal Government and came to the University of 

15 Maryland came from the angle that indeed I was told I 

16 could not continue to V7rite encylopedia articles because 

17 it might involve speaking for the Federal Government. 

18 We feel so strongly in faculties that we must 

19 be individuals, and I emphasize I speak as an individual 

20 here. I would say the faculty has not discussed this as 
a policy, but it would be a very strong faculty sentiment 



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for this type of policy as proposed to the Committee. 

THE CHAIRlvIAN: Mr. Delia? 

MR. DELLA : Mr. Chairman, I have no real 
problem about this Section, but I think it really is not 
necessary to be put in the Constitution. The University 
of Maryland through its actions has progressed over the 
years to a great extent of success, and by the autonomous 
power granted to it since 1952. If we put this in the 
Constitution, the University of Maryland, the State 
institutions would have just as much right to come in 
for the same recognition. I don't think they are in the 
position to have the maturity to be put in, but I feel 
as long as the University of Maryland is progressing as 
it has that it is not necessary to have it in the Consti- 
tution. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I guess it is maybe too late 
for questions, but I am confused by this whole problem. 
The surgery that has been suggested here is pretty 
radical. I wonder if there is any merit in leaving in 
some reference to the University of Maryland and its 
Regencies with some reference to its controls, but, how- 
ever, limiting the nature of those controls to a non- 
exclusive control? Is there any merit from the point 
of view of proponents of Section 3 in having a reference 
to the University of Maryland in the Constitution v^ithout 
necessarily going to the actual extent of Section 3 and 
having complete constitutional autonomy? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe was shaking her 
head . 

MRS. BOTHE: I gather. Judge Adkins , you are 
referring to the v7ord , exclusive? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Really referring to the con- 
cept of whether there is merit in having a reference to the 



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University of Maryland and it reaches into the Constitu- 
tion v7ithout giving it the full autonomy proposed. 

MRS. BOTHE: Take me out of the proposal, re- 
duce it to the kind of thing some members I feel, frankly 
feel are symbolic. 

THE CHAIPvMAN: Any further discussion? 

MR. HOFF: Mr. Chairman, we are having an 
educator run the University of Maryland at the present 
time. That has not always been the situation, and it 
may not always be the situation in the future. We are 
fortunate in having a Board of Regents at the present time 
with people such as Mr. Case. A Board of Regents is 
capable of exercising its own judgment. That has not 
always been true in the past, and perhaps V7ill not always 
be true in the future. In case something should happen 
that a strong but irresponsible person should become 
the President of the University of Maryland and gained 
control of the Board of Regents and continued to act ir- 
responsibly with the State's funds, I do not think that 
we ought to burn the bridge that we would have to cross 
in order to get back to the land of responsibility; and 



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1 if we put a constitutional provision such as this in the 

2 Constitution, we have done just that. We have lost all 

3 legislating and executive control over the affairs of 
^ the University of Maryland. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further debate? 

^ MR. MINDEL: This appears to me as evidence 

'^ of a certain amount of distrust in the Legislature. We 

8 here are trying to upgrade the Legislature. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: Mr. Chairman, I feel very strongly 

J--*- about this particular subject, not only because of my 
^^ experience on the Board of Regents and which I have 

13 served for the last six years, but because I am a graduate 
^^ of the Undergraduate and Law School of the University. 

15 Let me say first we are talking about a great university 
1^ nov7. It hasn't alv7ays been that v;ay, but today it is. 
^'^ The President of the United States himself said that the 

University ranges in the first ten schools of science in 
this entire country, both State and private; Now, we are 
not talking therefore about the kind of a situation we 
had in the early Fifties and the late Forties, and the 



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1 thing that Mr. Hoff and Dale Adkins are familiar with, 

2 namely the schools of yesteryear. The argument has 

3 been advanced here that there has been no showing by 
^ Mrs. Bothe that autonomy is needed. Let me cite three 

5 examples in the time I have. 

6 First, with reference to the professional 

7 staff. The University of Maryland is great in the science^ 

8 largely because of the advent of one man v7ho built a very 

9 strong department, physically. This man is in the greatesi: 
10 dem.and of any single person that V7e knew about in the 
1^- country. If it had not been for autonomy, we could not 

have kept him. We kept this man for twelve years at 

13 the University until he was able to build a great dcpart- 

14r ment . Today he is head of Stonybrook which is the 

15 graduate branch of the University of New York State and 

16 his nimiber tv/o man was the number one scientist of Johns 

17 Hopkins. 

18 Nov7, secondly, Mr. Scanlan says there has been 

19 no evidence v/a have been impeded in getting money for 

20 research. The exact contrary is true. If we didn't have 

21 statutory autonomy, many, many governmental grants V70uld 



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1 not have come. But more than this, there comes a time 

2 when you need trained people, people that demand large 

3 salaries and can be hired on a short term basis. With 

^ the Autonomy Act, the University can go out and get those 

5 people and the research funds. Without it, you would have 

6 to get approval from the Board of Public Works before 

7 you could ever enter into this, and this would be virtuall) 

8 impossible. 
^ Thirdly, with reference to property acquisition, 

10 the thing that Mrs. Bothe V7as talking about V7as the pur- 

1-^ chase of computers. The University of Maryland has one 

■^'^ of the finest computer centers in this State. The center 

13 itself and the computer in it cost better than 3% million 

1^ dollars. Of the 3^ million dollars, almost 2 million 

15 dollars was donated by IBM. IBM came to the University 

16 and asked first. Can you use this money as you see it, 
1''' or do you have to get some politician's okay? We were 
18 able to tell IBM that the autonomy of thf? University 

permits us to use this computer in the way we think it 

20 should be used. 

21 THE CHAIRl-lAN: Mr. Case, your tijne is up. 



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^ MR. CASE: For that reason, we got it. 

^ Because of the importance of this matter, I would like 

3 to extend my remarks . 

THE CHAIRM^^N: Make it brief.* 
MR. CASE: To give you the converse, when as 
Mrs. Bothe points out, when the Act was finally passed 
''' authorizing Ul-IBC , the Legislature in its infinitive 
° vzisdom eroded the time so the Board of Regents had to 
^ back away and go through the State for various pieces of 
equipment. The result of that V7as that you almost didn't 
operate on schedule, the reason being that purchases had 
to be made through the Budget Bureau and all the red tape 
^^ connected with that, whereas the University could have gon^ 
^^ out and done this purchasing at the same price and the 

^^ State gets it because it is on public bills, and we V70uld 
^" have had a much more efficient operation out there and 
^' an operation that V70uld have opened prior to the time it 
did. 

One final thing. Mr. Hoff says that it may be 
a time when some ogre.: gets ahold of the University. He 
admits Dr. Elkins is one of the finest public educators 



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1 in this country, that an oligo may get ahold of it and 

2 do away with autonomy and so on. My ansv/er is that is 

3 the old argument of burning do^^m the house to get rid of 
^ the rats. There is no reason at all to suspect this is 

5 going to happen because of the preeminence of the 

6 University, and our right today in this State. But I say 

7 to you, if that ever did happen, there are plenty of pro- 

8 cedures left in the Constitution to get rid of the Presi- 

9 dent. Bear in mind, ladies and gentlemen, that this 
autonomy requests a very restrictive thing. It is not 

•^^ giving the University a blank check. All it is asking 

^^ is that the University be permitted to manage its o^-m 

3-3 affairs after the appropriations have been made. All of 

1^- the safeguards are here and more that deal with education' 

15 ai institutions other than the University o They are all 

16 here, and in my judgment, this is the very least that 
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1^ university, something that V7e all can be proud of in this 
State, then this is the right V7ay to go about it. If you 



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ought to appear in the Constitution. I say to you that 

is 
if you want; the issue/ simply this, if you want a great 



^1 vjant the humdrum experience we had from 1920 to 1952, 



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1 then let the Legislature control it, and that is V7hat 

2 you V7ill get . 

3 THE CHAIFiMAN: Any further discussion? Debate? 
4: DR. BARD: Is it possible to explain one's 

5 vote? That is not in our rules before he gives it. 

6 THE CMIRl^IAN: I suppose so. It ought to be 

7 held to a very brief explanation. 

8 DR. BARD: It will be most brief and most un- 

9 usual. 

10 THE CHAIR>mN: Any further discussion? 

11 Mrs. Bothe? 

12 MRS. BOTHE: I would like to say a couple more 

13 words because I think a lot of this discussion reflects 
I'i a lack of understanding of the very unique position that 

15 the State's University is in. Someone asked Mr. Case 

16 why he felt it was different to control appropriations 

17 to the Judiciary and not to the University and that pin- 

18 points vjhat we are talking about. It is perfectly all 

19 right for the Budget Director to decide that the Clerk 

20 of the Court ought to get a few thousand dollars more or 

21 less or that the desks ought to come from State Utilities 

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1 or be purchased from Lucas Brothers. He is not inter- 

2 fering with the judicial process when he does this. He 

3 is not affecting the opinions of any judge or the means 

4 by which aiy litigant comes to court or the essense of 

5 the judicial process. But when a Budget Director decides 

6 what kind of computer the University of Maryland should 

7 have and how it should use it, it is going to invade the 

8 very heart of the educational process in Maryland. There 

9 is no other department, there is no other area of State 

10 government which is entitled as the University is to the 

11 exclusive management and control of its internal affairs. 

12 It is a different cup of tea. It is utterly unique 

13 for reasons I think V7e can all appreciate generally. I 

14 have done some reading in particular on the subject, and 

15 I have become utterly convinced of the propisition that 

16 we cannot consider the University of Maryland and the 

17 State Universities in the same context as many of the 

18 other branches of Government and inclusion of it in the 

19 Constitution is not going to create a precedent for in~ 

20 elusion of other areas of government. This is unique. 

21 THE CHAIRJ'IAN: Any further discussion? If not. 



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before Mr. Scanlan closes, I would like to state my views 
without argument. I am opposed to the inclusion of con- 
stitutional autonomy for the University of Maryland be- 
cause I don't think it is a matter which should be include 
in the Constitution. At the same time, I heartily favor 
a very substantial grant of autonomy by the Legislature. 
Those seemingly inconsistent statements may be explained 
by this simple statement. In academic matters, the 
University ought to have the utmost measure of autonomy. 
I tried to draft something that v'ould to my mind be 
satisfactory in granting academic autonomy without the 
other problems. I was unable to do so. It seems to me 
that since it is a State university, the ultimate authorit;|^ 
must be in the Legislature. I think that the Legislature 
and not the University ought to have the right to say 
V7hat the two issues should be, ought to have the right 
to decide in an overall way at least, the controls over 
the expenditures of the money and so forth. 

Thirdly, I am very much troubled by the languagi 
of this Section even if we approve constitutional autonomy 
I do not know \7hat is meant by the phrase, in accordance 



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1 V7ith law in the first phrase in light of the second two 

2 phrases, and the explanations of the Committee have not 

3 relieved my mind of the doubts. Also it seems to me 

4 that the last tv70 clauses in constitutional language 

5 grant complete and unfettered control. Mr. Scanlan, you 

6 want to close? 

7 GOVERITOR LANE: May I say something? 

8 THE CMIPvIlAN: I am sorry. 

9 GOVERNOR LANE: My confusion about it is that 

10 we have had numerous troubles that the University has, 

11 but si'tice 1952 from V7hat has been said, increasingly the 

12 University has been assisted, or to put it in a few v7ords , 

13 has been granted legislative autonomy. Could this be 

14 accomplished by a review or presentation to the Leg is- 

15 lature to expand the autonomy rather than to put it in 

16 the Constitution V7hich to a great extent is irrevocable? 
IV I think there should be a tie between the representatives 

18 of the people V7ith respect not only to the University, 

19 but V7ith all the other branches of the Government, so 

20 that V7e don't V7ind up gradually by having the head of the 

21 Government or its operation out of control. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: I just V7ant to repeat Mr. Bond's 

2 point about seven Constitutions referring to a State 

5 Constitution, but only four of those Constitutions grant 

4 autonomy of the type sought here. There is no question 

5 about the wisdom of the statutory autonomy under which 

6 the University of Maryland has flourished. As Governor 

7 Lane suggested, if it isn't sufficient, an amendment 

8 could accomplish everything accomplished here. 

9 As a matter of fact, converting the Univer- 

10 sity into a constitutional monopoly and assuming the 

11 proposition that Mr. Hoff referred to, that a man not in 

12 sympathy V7ith the educational objectives would become 

13 its president, it is entirely possible that freedom of 
14- debate, factual freedom of thought and exchange might 

15 diminish under constitutional autonomy. In short, con- 

16 stitutional autonomy neither makes or mars a great univer- 

17 sity, and there is no need for it in the Constitution. 

18 TllE CKAIRI^IAN: Ready for the question? The 

19 question arises on the motion to delete Section 3; after 

20 we take the vote I will give an opportunity to any v7ho 

21 v;ant to, to make a statement in explanation of their 



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1 votes and suggest they hold it very brief, 15 seconds 

2 perhaps. All those in favor of the motion, the motion 

3 to delete Section 3 in its entirety, please signify by a 
4: show of hands. Contrary? The motion is carried, 11 to 

5 10. 

6 Dr. Bard? 

7 DR. BARD: I would like to explain my vote 

8 because X think it V70uld be important in terms of perhaps 

9 proposing another motion v>7ith such a close vote. A good 
10 deal \7C\s said about academic freedom. Hox<7 does academic 
H freedom differ for those v7ho teach at the graduate level 

12 at a State level, from those who teach at State colleges? 

13 A good deal V7as said about the seven constitutions, many 
14: of those embrace the entire higher educational system. 

15 A good deal was said about budgetary restrictions. This 

16 holds true at the entire higher educational spectrum, 

17 and so my vote was a negative one because I felt that it 

18 picked out but one segment of the tripartite arrangements. 

19 I am hopeful that perhaps we can provide for the whole 

20 arrangement . 

21 THE CMIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I listened care- 

2 fully to the pros and cons. I thought it boiled down 

3 to a simple issue of v;hether you V7ere voting for con- 
4r stitutional autonomy or statutory autonomy, and then I 

5 moved one step further and came to the conclusion that 

6 constitutional autonomy deserved a progress and develop- 

7 ment and state of affairs vjhich V7as good and would con- 

8 tinue to be made better, and therefore voted against the 

9 motion. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further explanation of the 

11 votes? Mrs. Bothe, anything further with respect to your 

12 Report? 

13 DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I want to make a 

14 motion. 

15 THE CHAIRI4AN: Go ahead. 

16 DR. JENKINS: I move the following statement 

17 appear in the record and minutes of the Commission, and 

18 I doubt this V7ill take very much time. The rejection by 

19 the Commission of provision for constitutional autonomy 

20 for the University and other interested State colleges 

21 is not to be construed as disapproval of provision for 



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1 statutory autonomy for these institutions. 

2 THE CIIAIRZ'IAM: Just a second. Is there a 

3 second? 

^ DR. BARD: I second. 

5 DRo JENKINS: The obvious purpose for having 

6 this in the record is that V7hen and if the issue comes up 

7 in the General Asserably, it will have some effect on the 

8 opponents of autonomy. 

9 THE CHAIK-IAN: Any further discussion? 

10 Mr. Bond? 

11 MR. BOND: I just wanted to ask — 

12 DR. JENKINS: As this is stated, it doesn't 

13 say we approve it necessarily, either. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond? 

15 MR. BOND: What is statutory autonomy? 

16 DR. JENKINS: Provided by statute. 

17 MR. BOND: You heard Mr. Case say it could be 

18 taken away at any time. I V7onder if that means anything. 

19 THE CHAIKIAN: Mr. Sayre? 

20 . MR. SAYRE: Would Dr. Jenkins be willing to 

21 have a slight amendment that V70uld have the effect of, 



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1 what V7as the wording I had in mind, that our vote here has 

2 not taken away any possible support to statutory autonomy. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it that is exactly the 
4: purpose of Dr. Jenkins' motion, and I would also take 

5 it that every Member of this Commission is in sympathy 

6 with it, 

7 Mrs. Bothe? 

8 MRS. BOTHE: The debate speaks for itself. 

9 As a matter of fact, I am wondering if the motion 

10 V70uldn't vjater dov7n the point rather then make it because 

11 I think the record should show it does infer essentially 

12 that the vote as taken was actually in favor of autonomy. 

13 The person who did vote and subsequently explained it has 

14 explained he didn't think there vzas enough autonomy in 

15 the proposition. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: The only difficulty is that not 

17 every Member who voted expressed his views . 

18 Ready for the question? The question is on 

19 Dr. Jenkins' motion that the minutes contain the state- 

20 ment that he has read and that the reporter has to the 

21 general effect that the vote to delete Section 3 is 



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1 in no way to be taken as an indication that the Corr.mission 

2 is opposed to statutory autonomy. All those in favor, 

3 signify by saying Aye. Contrary, No. The motion is 
4: carried unanimously. Anything further, Mrs. Bothe? 

5 MRS. BOTHE: I don't know whether the other 

6 negative aspects of the Report will be brought up. I 

7 knov/ you mentioned that you wanted to be brought up on 

8 the discussion of the Superintendent of Schools. 

9 THE CIiAIR>mN: I think in view of the turn 

10 that the debate on Section 3 has taken that that can 

11 be left to the presentation of the Coiniiittee on Executive 

12 Department. It occurs to me that somewhere in your 

13 Report you itemized seriatim the proposals. I wonder 
14: if we could save time. 

15 MRS. BOTHE: Pages 4 and 5. 

16 THE CH/aRI-lMsI: No, I am thinking about the 

17 positions taken. It begins on Page 5. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: The first position vs took regard- 

19 ing Section 3 of the present Article VIII, there was 

20 a great deal of comment made on this Section, both tied 

21 in with Section 22 of Article III and as it stood on its 



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•*• merits. We found education was about emotional as 

^ education itself. Examination of Section 3 led our 

S Committee to the conclusion that it was meaningless and 

^ that it V70uld serve no purpose to perpetuate those pro- 

5 visions in the nev7 Constitution. Words similar to those 

the 

" found in/Section appear in a number of Constitutions. 

' Most of them are older Constitutions because in the 



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good old days , the habit was for the State to impose 



particular taxes for the raising of funds to support the 

schools and the purpose, there was such a thing as a 
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school fund which comprised the revenues of specially 
earmarked taxes, and it apparently V7as a legislative 
^^ boondoggle at one time to levy a tax for school purposen, 

■'■^ and then use the funds for some less sympathetic cause. 
15 For that reason provisions of Section 3 were contained 
■^^ in the Maryland and many other State Constitutions. 

^' However, today we do not have special State taxes, and I 
say State taxes, I mean those imposed by State Government 
exclusively for the schools. The State contributions to 
maintenance of the public school derive from the general 
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1 funds which exist is a few thousand dollars which are 

2 earmarked for the use of the schools. They are of such 

3 small consequence that they hardly need constitutional 
^ protection. 

5 MRS. FREEDLANDER: A point of order, Mr. Chair- 

^ man. I feel this is out of order since we adopted the 

''' provision of the Report, and it v^as to be a substitute 

for the Article as it appears in the Constitution. I 

^ don't see the point at this time. 
1^ THE CHAIPu'lAN: Let me make the suggestion. I 

"^^ don't think it is out of order, but I don't think you 

^^ need discuss these positions extensively unless someone 

13 wants to. You might just state the recommendation. 
^^ MRSo BOTHE: The recommendation is that there 

15 be no provision similar to that contained in the present 

1^ Article VIII, Section 5, that the school funds of the 

^^ State be kept inviolate. 

1® THE CHAIRIIAN: Any question or objection to 

that conclusion of the Committee. If not, it is con- 
sidered as approved. Next recommendation is on Page 7. 



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20 



^^ Middle of the Page B. That the State Board of Education 



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1 and the office of State Superintendent of the Public 

2 Schools not be given constitutional recognition. Any 

3 question or debate or discussion. If not, that will be 
^ considered as approved. Recommendation Number C has 

5 already be acted upon. 

6 MR. GENl'RY: Mr. Chairman, on recommendation 
*? C, I would like to suggest there be no further debate, 

8 but I V70uld like to call for a recount of a vote v;e took 

9 on this Section because I believe there have been some 

10 additional votes not counted previously. 

11 THE CHAIRI4/.N: I don't see how there are votes 

12 that were not counted. 

13 MR. GENTRY: One Member was out of the room 

14 when the vote was counted. 

15 THE CHAIK4AN; Who? 

16 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Mitchell. 

17 . THE CHAIRl^IAN: Under the rule we adopted 

18 previously, he could not vote on a reconsideration. 

19 MR. GENTRY: Also Judge Walsh has expressed 

20 himself so strongly that his vote should be counted. 

21 THE CHAII^4AN: V7e decided some time ago that 



-we— v^au4. <3 not a e&efit— t^he-v^^-e-s of ^ ^^^^€^^0— v 7ho was not 

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1 present during the debate on the question and could not 

2 vote absentee persons. There are others who are not here 
5 today and might have contrary viev7S, so I would have 

4 to rule your suggestion out of order. Is there any 

5 further recommendation, Mrs. Bothe? That is the end of 

6 it. 

7 MRS. BOTHE: I think D has inferentially 

8 covered . 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: D is on Page 12. Any further 

10 discussion or question? If not, it is considered as 

11 approved. Section E is on Page 14. 

12 MRS. BOTHE: That may have been approved by 

13 the Commission at the July meeting. The subject was 

14 raised so that recommendation is that there be no 

15 reference to private aid to education in the Constitution. 

16 In the July meeting that recommendation as it nov7 appears 

17 was discussed, and I believe the point was approved in 

18 principle by the Conniissioh. 

19 THE CHAIF24AN: Any further discussion? 

20 Mr. Gentry? 

21 MR. GENTRY: No motion on this point, but I 



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want to call the Commission^ attention to the entire pur- 
port of Section E here for the reason if there is any 
belief among Conimission Members that we have done any- 
thing V7hich would preclude State aid to private institu- 
tions, V7e should take further action. I feel the entire 
action of the Committee was done toward the end that 
we should remain silent on the point of it, but not to 
prohibit State aid to private institutions. 

: THE CRAIPvl^lAN: Any further comment or discus- 
sion? Anything further? 

Dr. Bard? 

DR. BARD: I felt Mrs. Freedlander 's substi- 
tute provided for that if the State so desired it. That 
could be taken care of through the substitution motion 
which Mrs. Freedlander moved and V7hich was subsequently 
passed, Stat^ aid for private institutions can be taken 
care of. 

THE CHAIRliAN: Yes. Any further comment or 
discussion? If not, that concludes the consideration of 
the Fifth Report of the Coinraittce on Miscellaneous 
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MRS. BOTHE: Could you bear with us a brief 




moment? 




MR. CL^GETT: Mr. Chairman, while the discussion 




is continuing, can we go back to Page 5 and run through 




A and D and put a Yes or No? 




THE CHAIR>L^N: As approved on Page 5. B, on 





Page 7 is approved . 

MR. CLAGETT: Page 5, I am talking about. 

THE CHAIRl'IAN: They are stated in the seriatim 
list rather than recommendations. They are repeated in 
the more positive form. B, on Page 7, that is approved, 
C was controlled by the vote on Section 3; D, on Page 12, 
was approved ; E , on Page 14 v/as approved . 

Mrs. Bo the? 

MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the 
Commission's rules are with respect to this, but I believe 
the education report is still before you, and I V70uld 
propose and I V70uld hope we could take another vote v;ithout 
protracting.jdeb^ite • that Section 3, proposed Section 3 be 
amended to read as follovjs: The University of Maryland sha).! 
be managed by the Regents of the University of Maryland 



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1 in accordance with law and the Regents shall have exclu- 

2 sive general supervision of the institution. Deleting 

3 the words follov7ing, that the control of the expenditures 

4 of the institution's funds V7ill be under the supervision 

5 of the institution. 

6 MR. CASE: I will second. 

7 THE CHAIRIIAN: Mrs. Bothe, I would have to rule 

8 the motion out of order. At the time this V7as considered, 

9 I called for question of all amendments. Since then 

10 there is at least one or perhaps two Members of the Com- 

11 mission who have not participated in the previous debate 

12 or been present when it vjas heard. When that question 

13 arose in July and request was made for such a person to 

14 vote, the Commission determined that it should not grant 

15 the privilege to anyone who had not been present during 
16* the debate. I think in all fairness now that the same rule 

17 should apply. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, 

19 and the Members of the Commission or any Member not 

20 present for the debate should not be privileged to vote 

21 on the issue, but I am asking that a vote be taken by those 



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present for the discussion. 

THE CHAIPJMAN: I rule the motion out of order 
but permit you to appeal to the Commission. Do you want 
me to put it to a vote? 

MR. SCANLAN: I V70uld call attention to the 
fact that Mr. Hoff v7ho voted in favor of the original 
motions is no longer in the room. 

MR. CASE: What difference does that make? 

THE CHAIRi'lAK: Just a moment, Mr. Scanlan has 
the floor. 

MR. SCANLAN: If Mrs. Bothe succeeds in over- 
ruling the Chair, I would hope any vote v;ould wait until 
Mr. Hoff can return. 

MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I think a point of 
order is well, taken, and I don't believe that the Chair, 
if it so rules, that it ought to debate or anything else. 

THE CHAIRI'IAN: I don't believe it is open to 
debate. The question arises on appeal. 

JUDGE ADKINS: May I make a suggestion? It 
seems to me that this is a very criticfil matter. I 
voted V7ith the mcijority, and I v/ill vote with the mrjority 



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unless the minority can come up with a successful amend- 




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ment. It should not be redecided on an 11 to 10 vote. 




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I would say this matter be made a special matter of busi- 




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ness at the next Conunission meeting with the understand- 




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ing that if the Committee wants to come back with a 




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modified proposal not embodying the question of autonomy 




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that the Commission will consider the proposal without 




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debate . 




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THE CHAIRMAN: The matter pending is an 




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appeal from a ruling by the Chair. Do you want to press 




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it? 




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MRS. BOTHE: V7ould the Chair accept a sugges- 




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tion that it be made a special order of business? 




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THE CHAIFJ^IAN: Certainly, the Report is still 




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before the Commission. 




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MRS. BOTHE; That would be agreeable to me. 




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MR. SCANLAN: Would you speak louder? 




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• 




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1 MRS. BOTHE: It would be agreeable if we fol- 

2 lowed Judge Adklns ' suggestion. In view of the very 

3 close vote, I feel it should be done. 

^ THE CHAIR14AN: Well then, the motion, as I 

5 understand it, is that the subject matter of Section 3 be 

^ referred back to the Committee vjith instructions to report 

^ to the next meeting of the Commission a redraft of the 

8 Section, and I didn't quite get your qualifying language. 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: My qualifying language v/as that 
•^^ it V70uld not involve the complete autonomy they have pro- 
^^ posed here since that has been voted dov7n. 

^2 THE CHAIRMAN: And this be made a special 

•^^ order of business at the next meeting. 

1^ ' DR. BARD: The question? 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Has that been seconded? 

1^ DR. JENKINS: I second it, and I understood hiir. 

^*^ to say special order of business without debate. If that 

1® is permissible. 

1^ THE CHAIRMAN: Is that what you said, you mean, 

2^ without debate novj? 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: I withdrav? that portion of my 

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motion because I don't think this motion, if it is a new 
matter, it should not be vjithout debate. I vzould be 
willing to limit the debate. 

DR. RA.RD: I have a point of order. Would 
the maker of the motion be willing to put a period after, 
redraft of the provision? 

JUDGE ADKINS: No. 

DR. BARD: In other v7ords , you are telling 
them how to redraft it according to your motion? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I will stand on ray motion. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of the 
motion? 

MRS. BOTHE: A point of information. VJill 
everyone at that meeting be privileged to vote? 

THE CHAIRl^AN: At the next meeting, certainly. 
It will be a new matter before the Commission at that 
time. It will not be merely a reconsideration. 

MR. MILLER: VJill it be subject to a point of 
order if it goes right back to the beginning about putting 
the University of Maryland in the Constitution? 

THE CHAIRMAN: It would involve, as I understand 



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1 it, the draft of a provision providing some form of 

2 autonomy for the University of Maryland, constitutional 

3 autonomy, something less than the absolute autonomy 

4 presently in Section 3. 

5 JUDGE ADKINS: That is the substance. May I 

6 say by way of explanation that I asked during the course 

7 of the discussion if the Committee was interested in 

8 having some reference to the University of Maryland in 

9 the Constitution? Without going to the full extent of 

10 Section 3, their answer at that tijne was No, and in 

11 accordance V7ith that answer, I voted for Mr. Scanlan'-s 

12 motion. I do not favor autonomy. If there is something 

13 less than full autonomy that can be helpful in the 

14 situation, I might be prepared to accept it. I do not thitjik 

15 that that opportunity ought to be forclosed on an 11 to 

16 10 vote. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

18 MR. MILLER: I approve of the principle, but 

19 why should we open the gates for some of the Members 

20 here that may feel strongly about this one way or another 

21 and may not be able to attend the next meeting; and we 



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1 are just throv/ing the gates open, and all we fought and 

2 bled and died over here this morning is going down the 

3 drain if a new proposition can be brought yp . I would 
^ suggest we decide it right now. 

5 THE CHAIRM/iN: Mr. Clagett? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: I would disagree with that, 
^^ Mr. Chairman. I think it has been one of the great 

® revelations and sources of pleasure to all who have par- 

^ ticipated in the meetings of this Commission from the 

beginning up until now, and now is not the end. We have 

■^■^ been able to find common meeting grounds and to resolve 

"^^ many important issues in a V7ay that was acceptable to all 

of us and to foreclose this particular issue as Hnpor-" 

^^ tant as it is and as close as the vote is, I think would 

^5 be a great mistake because there must be some common 

1^ ground and one where we can all go out V7ith a degree of 

^^ satisfaction. 

IQ THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of the 

^^ motion? Ready for the question? The question arises on 

^^ the motion to refer to the Committee on Miscellaneous 

^^ Provisions reconsideration of Section 3 with the request 



10 



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1 that the Committee submit at the next meeting of the 

2 Commission a redraft of Section 3 which provides for the 

3 University of Maryland something less than the complete 

^ autonomy provided by the present Section 3, and that this 

5 be made the special order of business at the next meeting 

6 of the Commission. 

^ Ready for the Question? All those in favor, 

8 signify by saying Aye. Contrary, No. The Ayes seem to 

have it. The Ayes have it. Anything further, Mrs. Bothe? 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I believe that covers our Report 

•^1 pending the next meeting. 

12 (Whereupon the meeting adjourned, to reconvene 

13 follov7ing the luncheon recess.) 



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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COM^USSION 






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AFTERNOON SESSION 






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October 15, 1966 
Holiday Inn, Baltimore, Maryland 

Appearances as heretofore noted. 






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Re 
N. 


por 
F. 


ted by: 
Swetland 








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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Can v;e get started, please? 

2 We nov7 go ahead with the consideration of the Fifth 

3 Report of the Committee on Judiciary Department. 

4 Mr. Martineau? 

5 MR. MARTINEAU: As the answer to Mrs. 

6 Freedlander 's question, the purpose of this report is 

7 primarily to tidy up the judiciary article that is 

8 presented in our Fourth Report and to include the 

9 changes V7hich V7ere directed by the Commission at our 

10 last meeting. Perhaps the most notev'orthy aspect of 

11 the report is its brevity. We V7ent from forty pages 

12 of comment to one page. The first page of the report 

13 indicates the procedure that we follov;ed which V7as 

14 merely to reprint the article showing the changes in 

15 there in the same way as changes are shovm in legisla- 

16 tion, bills adopted by the Legislature, that is the new 

17 material is underscored and the deleted material is 

18 bracketed, I V7ill run through the sections very quickly 

19 and vjhatever changes there are, I will explain. If 

20 there are any questions, just stop me as I go along. 

21 There was no change in Section 1. Section 2 A 



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1 just included the style change vzhich was requested by, 

2 I believe, Dr. Burdette and V7e have agreed to refer 

3 to the jurisdiction rather than such jurisdiction as 

4 provided by law. Section 2b deletes the reference to 

5 the Chief Justice and merely refers to seven Justices 

6 and includes the change from four to five vjhich would 

7 constitute a quorum. 

8 This V7as directed by the Commission at the 

9 last meeting. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute. Unless you 

11 have a question about a particular section, we will 

12 just continue right on. I will try to keep my eye 

13 around so if you have a question, just signify that you 

14 want to be recognized and I will stop him. 

15 MR. M^RTINEAU: Section 3A we made the 

15 same change v:ith respect to the language. Section 3B, 

17 we miade the same reference to the number of judges 

18 deleting the reference to the Chief Judge. VJe also 

19 added the word exclusively by rule. This, .along v;ith 

20 some other changes, made in the rule section were 

21 designed to avoid the difficulty that V7as raised by 



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Mr. Case at the last meeting of v.'hether the provisions, 




2 


the sections here that related to rule making would 




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permit the Legislature to pass a law which v^ould change 




4 


the rule. We have attempted by the use of the word 




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exclusively here and by the use of different language 




6 


in the rule m.aking section to make it clear v/hich 




7 


matters covered by rule are exclusively covered by 




8 


rules of the Supreme Court and V7hich can be modified 




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by the Legislature. 




10 


TtlE CH/^IRmN: Mr. Martineau, before you 




11 


leave that, this v7ord vzhich is used in four or five 




12 


sections, I think, is a little av7k^7ard. Is there any 




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objection from the point of viev; of substance or any 




14 


other objection from your Committee if the Committee on 




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Style is able to cover this problem in the section on 




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rule and not repeat the exclusively four or five times. 




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MR. MARTINEAU: I wouldn't think there 




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v;ould be any objection whatsoever. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 




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MR. mRTINEAU: As a matter of fact, if 




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any of you have suggestions as to rephrasing that might 






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1 express the thought here more clearly we woild be happy 

2 to receive them. We have done and have almost 

3 consistently revised the language to make it more clear 

4 and if anyone has any suggestion, we v;ould be happy to 

5 receive them. We have no objection to the Committee 

6 on Style making any changes they deem appropriate. 

V Going on to Section 4 the first reference 

8 to underscored there in all judicial proceedings was 

9 directed at the Commission at the last meeting and the 

10 deletion of the word all in the first line was also 

11 directed as V7as the addition of the word by this 

12 Constitution. The next changes are shall have, as is, 

13 is also a matter of cleaning up the language. In 

1^ Section B, AB , v;e have rephrased the language somev^hat 

15 to make it clear that the judges are allocated among 

16 the counties by law. This was again a matter raised 
IV at the last meeting. Skipping on then to -- 

18 THE CHAIRMA.N: Hay I ask a question here? 

19 MR. mRTINEAU: Yes. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN : It is not clear to me as this 

21 is rephrased what is meant by the phrase allocated among 



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1 the counties by law. 

2 MR. mRTINEAU: Well, the phrase Is that, 

3 it is intended to mean that the Legislature will provide 

4 that Baltimore County there shall be 13 Judges of the 

5 Superior Court. In Baltimore City, there shall be 20, 

6 and in some other county there will be 1, 2, or 3. That 

7 is the purpose. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean simply the number 

9 allocated? 

10 , MR. MARTINEAU: Not the individual. 

11 THE CH/iIRM\N: What I was thinking was 

12 whether or not this would let the Legislature provide 

13 by for lav;, for instance, that there will be 7 Judges 

14 in Prince Georges County, 2 of v7hom should be elected 

15 from Charles County and one from St. Marys and one from 

16 Calvert and the rest from Prince Georges. 

17 MR. MARTINEAU: I would not think so. 

18 THE CHAIRM^iN: That is not intended? 

19 MR. MARTINEAU: Certainly not intended. We 

20 are trying to cover the residency requirements. Perhaps 

21 this does not express it very well. 



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1 THE CHAIRmN: Do you need the phrase who 

2 shall be allocated among the counties by law at all, does 

3 it add anything? Mr, Rodowsky. 

4: MR, RODOVJSKY: I think you need something 

5 to tie in v/ith the residency requirement further on 

6 particularly with the change that was dictated by the 

7 Commission that you have not only a residence as a 

8 condition of eligiblity for nomination and appointment, 

9 but this concept of a principal place of the practice 

10 of law and which creates the problem so that you need 

11 some concept whereby the particular office to be filled 

12 is tied to a particular one of the counties since I 

13 think the idea is -- 

14: THE CHAIRMAN: I take it you are saying 

15 the Legislature shall have the power to determine 

16 the number of Judges to be allocated to each county and 

17 that is all? 

18 MR. RODOWSKY: And I think if we change 

19 the who to which, it might do it because it modifies 

20 number and not the person. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: How will that read? I read 

2 this to be just as you described it, seven Judges in 
5 Prince Georges County and two coming from outside the 

4 county or allocated to it. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, since we have the 

5 intent clear nov;, can we leave the exact phraseology to 

7 the Committee? 

e MR. MARTINEAU: If there are no other 

9 questions on 4B, I will move on to 5A, v.'hich merely has 

10 the change ascribing the jurisdiction which was a 

11 stylistic change. For Section 5B, again it is merely 

12 a style change deleting the reference to the Chief 

13 Judge and Associate Judges and just saying the number 

14 of Judges provided by law. The last sentence added is 

15 merely to pick up the point V7hich V7as taken out of the 
15 first sentence V7hich was deleted, that is that there 
17 must be at least one District Court Judge resident in 
19 each district. 

19 Section 4 -- excuse me, Section 5C, 

20 Commissioners. Again, these are merely stylistic 

21 changes. We have added the word exclusively to cover 



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1 the point I mentioned before. All of the other changes 

2 in there are merely stylistic to make it, the point we 

3 are trying to make clear, that is. 

4 THE CHAIR114N: May we go back to 5B. I 

5 have always been troubled by the third sentence, there 

6 shall be a division of the District Court for each 

7 district. Is it necessary at all? Can it be eliminated? 

8 MR. MARTINEAU: If you don't say that, then 

9 the concept of dividing the court into different 

10 districts isn't included in here. 

11 THE CHAIRM^vK: You are not really dividing 

12 the court into districts, are you? 

13 MR. mRTINEAU: You divide the court into 

14 divisions . 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you really want to? 

16 Don't you really want to have simply one statevride 

17 district court and for convenience you are having 

18 geographically a district rather than the county but 

19 otherwise the system is the same as for the Superior 

20 Court? I assume, for instance, that the style of the 

21 new court will be, for instance, the Superior Court of 



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the State of Maryland in and for Baltimore County. 

MR. mRTINEAU: That's correct. 

THE CliAIRMAN: Is there any reason V7hy in 
the District Court it wouldn't be the District Court of 
the State of Maryland in and for the 7th District? VJhy 
a division? 

MRc MARTINEAU: Well, this is a semantic 
problem that we got involved in with Judge Niles as a 
matter of fact. We m.ust have debated this point for 
three months . 

THE CH.4IRMAN: No, you debated the question 
whether the v7ord district or division. I don't mean 
that point. All I am saying is v^hy do you need a 
division. I agree that division, if you need a 
division, the proper term is division, but V7hy do you 
need a division? It is one statev;ide court. 

MR. MARTINEAU: That's correct. But you 
are only going to have, you are going to have a branch 
of that court for a particular district. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Just as you are going to 
have a branch of the Superior Court &r every county? 



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MR. MARTINEAU: My reporter tells me the 




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Chairman is right and bet^s^een the two of them, I don't 




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see how I can argue. 




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MR. SCANLAN: That illustrates our difficulty. 




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Will you raise your voice so V7e can hear your conversa- 




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tion. 




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MR. MARTINEAU: My reporter tells me the 




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Chairman is right and between the two of them, I don't 




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see how I can carry the argument further. 




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MR. CLAGETT: Why don't you have a District 




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Court, one District Court for tv7o districts? 




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MR. MARTINEAU: V7ell, it is one District 




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Court for the entire state actually. 




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MR. CLAGETT: V7hy can't you have a presiding 




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division of that District Court for two districts? 




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THE CHAIRIIAN: The whole purpose of a 




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district is to have at least one Judge. 




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MR. CLAGETT: Well, it m.ay be for the 




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CoriHiission , • though, and administrative facilities 




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somewhere. 




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THE CKAIPJ-IAN: For purposes of the Court, 
it is so. 






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1 MR. CI.AGETT: V7here does it actually say 

2 that unless you keep this sentence in here? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me state my understanding 

4 and then the Chairman of the Committee and reporter can 

5 correct me if I am wrong. The District Court, just 

6 as the Superior Court, is one statewide court. You 

7 have a provision that there shall be at least one Judge 

8 in every county. The District Court has the same 

9 concept. It is a statevjide court. You cannot say there 

10 shall be at least one District Judge in every county 

11 because you have decided not to have that many. You 

12 have decided there must be one District Judge in 

13 every district which is something more than a county 

14 perhaps. The only purpose, as I understand it, of 

15 creating a district is to have a geographical unit 

16 that may be larger than a county so that the provision 

17 that you have only one resident Judge in each district. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I still can't grasp the 

19 concept that if you have a Judge, you have to have a 

20 court for him to sit in. 

21 THE CHAIRRAN: You are talking about a court 



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room now? 




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MR. CLAGETT: Maybe that is what I am thinking 




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of. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: There is one in every district. 




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MR. CLAGETT: Where does it say so unless 




7 


you do say so? 




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MR. RARTINKAU: The last sentence says there 




9 


shall be at least one District Court Judge resident 




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in each district. 




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MR. CLAGETT: Where is his court room? 




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THE CHAIRi'IAN: Wherever the Legislature 




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happens to fij; it. 




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MR. CLAGETT: I find if you provide a 




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District Court for each division, I have no difficulty 




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V7ith it, but there is a question. 




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MR. MARTINEAU: It really is. The two 




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sentences to together, the second sentence merely 




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explains the first sentence as to what you are 




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establishing by the division of the court into districts. 




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It really isn't necessary perhaps as an explanatory 






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1 matter and I think if vje can delete a sentence out of 

2 here v;ithout interfering with the actual meaning of 

3 the Constitution, I think we better do it. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: My concern goes further 

5 than that. What bothers me is the notion that by 

6 creating a division, you seem to be at war with the 
'7 idea of one statewide court. 

8 MR. MARTINEAU: I see the problem and 

^ agree V7ith your concern. 
^0 MR. CI^AGETT: That had not occurred to me. 

^^ V/hen I read this, I went back and re-read the same 

^^ sentence and I felt my mind satisfied that there v/as a 

13 Judge and there was a court and everything went along 

^^ fine, but I will not object to it. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hargrove. 

16 MR. RARGROVE: I think perhaps we could 

17 combine the three sentences because the state shall 

18 be divided by law into districts composed of one or 

19 more entire or continuous counties. I think we have 
three separate thoughts that can be combined. And it 



20 



^^ says V7hich shall be located at the District Court. 



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1 THE CHAIRmN: That could be a question for 

2 the Style Committee. 

3 MR. MARTINEAU: Correct. 

4 THE CR'^IRIl^N: I take it the Committee 

5 agrees to the deletion of the sentence? 

6 MR. MA.RTINEAU: I don't know about the rest 

7 of the Committee. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection to 

9 the deletion of the sentence there shall be a division 

10 of the District Court for each district? 

11 MR. MARTINEAU: We don't object. 

12 ' THE CHAIRMAN: That vjill be out. Now 

13 go on to 6. 

14 MR. MARTINE/iU: I have already explained 

15 Section C. Section 6 is merely, it V7as Section 8 and 

16 has nov7 been designated Section 6. Other than that, 

17 there is no change. Section 7, the one change here is 

18 in the, at the end of the third paragraph V7here we 

19 deleted the reference to the making of the budget. You 

20 have already approved a slightly different form in the 

21 Second Report of the Committee on Finance and Taxation. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: That means we delete the 
second sentence of the third paragraph, the one in 
brackets? 

MR. MARTINEAU: The one in brackets. It 
has been deleted by the Cormiittee because it is in 
brackets. There are no other changes in that section. 

Section 8, the rule-making power, we again 
have attempted here and the changes in the language to 
make clear that the legislative authority overrules and 
only extends to' the three specific types of rules 
mentioned in 1, 2, and 3, and that v/herever else the 
word rule is used in the section or in the 
article rather, that it is exclusively by rule and 
that the Legislature has no authority over it. That 
is the only purpose of the changes in that section. 

MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to 
make a comment on Section 7 because I recall yesterday 
that the Finance Committee provided that the Chief 
Judge of the Superior Court budget would not be subject 
to revision and the Committee on Style or whoever has 
coord5,nated this, I think the deletion of that division, 



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3^ Section 7, that the Chief Judge of the Superior Court 

2 V7ho prepares the budget ought to be tied in. 

3 THE CHAIRMN: I think it does tie in. 

4. This is in the Section 52 provision that was discussed 

g yesterday. It says the budget for the Judiciary Depart- 

Q ment prepared by the Superior Court may be submitted. 
Y MR. MA.RTINEAU: The Subsection 3 V7hich is on 

Q Page 13 of the Finance Committee's report provides 

9 that the estimates of appropriation is for, and skipping 

10 to the judiciary, for the judiciary as required by law 

11 certified by the Chief Judge of the Superior Court 

12 shall be transmitted to the Governor in such form and 

13 in such manner as he shall direct and shall be included 

14 in the budget without revision. So they have picked 

15 up the idea as to who is preparing it. Of course, they 
Ig have changed the concept of whether the budget is 

lY subject to revision by the executive or not. The 

13 results of what has been done, our original proposal 

19 was that the judiciary budget was subject to revision by 

20 the Legislature, not by the executive, the result of 

21 the action of the Commission in approving this report 



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1 is that the budget of the judiciary is now subject to 

2 revision by the executive but not by the Legislature. 

3 A further section that was adopted yesterday provides 

4 that the budget of the judiciary as submitted by the 

5 Governor can be increased by the Legislature but not 

6 decreased and that is the same piovision that is in 

7 the present Constitution. 

8 THE CHAIRMN: Mr. Bond. 

9 -MR. BOND: Point of information, Mr. 

10 Chairman. Has this provision as to rule-making power 

11 been finally approved by this Committee? 

12 THE CHAIR^AN: Wait just a second. You are 

13 on Section 8.. 

14 MRS. BOTHE: I am satisfied. 

15 MR. CLAGETT; A question on Section 7. 

16 Is it possible that the Chief Justice could not 

17 assign the Chief Judge of the Superior Court the 

18 budget making responsibility that has to be submitted 

19 to the budget? ' ' 

20 MR, MARTINEAU: Well, it is actually assigned 

21 to him by the section that I just read to you. 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: I didn't read that as assigning 

2 it to him. 

3 THE CHAIRmN: Certified by him. 

4 MR. MARTINEAU: Obviously he is not going 

5 to prepare it individually. Som2 part of the adrninistra- 

6 tive office of the court is going to have to prepare 

7 the budget. The individuiil Judge couldn't possibly do 

8 it. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: My question is, is it possible 

10 that the Chief Justice in assigning the administrative 

11 responsibilities to the Chief Judge of the Superior 

12 Court should not give him anything that acquaints him 

13 and makes it a .basis for him to certify. 

14 MR. MARTINEAU: He is necessarily going to 

15 have to be familiar with the operation of the judicial 

16 system. He is the principal assistant to the Chief 

17 Justice and the administrator of the judicial system. 

18 I don*t see how he cannot be familiar with it. 

19 MRo CLAGETT: That as a practicality is 

20 certainly true but there is a loophole there. There is 

21 a possibility he may be sent off to St. Marys County and 



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1 kept busy dov/n there in some responsibility, 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: There is no reason for 

3 that, Hal, because the Chief Judge of the Superior 

4 Court is appointed and serves at the pleasure of the 

5 Chief Justice. If you are talking about a man V7ith 

6 whom the Chief Justice doesn't get along and wants to 

7 exile him, he doesn't have to exile him, he can appoint 

8 somebody else Chief Judge. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question on 

10 Section 7? If not, Mr, Bond, you have a question on 

11 Section 8. 

12 MR. BOND: Has the substance of this 

13 section been approved by the Commission on prior meetings? 

14 MR. mRTINEAU: Yes. 

15 MR. BOND: I move its reconsideration. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

17 MRc MITCHELL: Second. 

18 THE CH-AIPvM/vN: What's the point you want 

19 to reconsider, Mr, Bond? 

20 MR. BOlNlD: Only that I feel that if the 

21 Legislature and the people speak in response to something 
th at they see in the adm inistratio n of ^he court and I 



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1 think the words governing practice and procedure is 

2 pretty broad. Certainly the Legislature -» 

3 THE CRMRmN: Wait, go ahead. Don't 

4 discuss it, give the point. 

5 MR. BOND: The point I am making is that 

6 the Legislature speaks and the court should not be able 

7 to overrule the Legislature. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: The question is submitted to 

9 the Commission without debate under our rule as to 

10 whether or not you want to reconsider. This is a 

11 question V7hich the Commission has acted on in opposite 

12 directions in two successive meetings. Are you ready 

13 for the question? 

14 DR. BURDETTE: I can't hear. What are v;e 

15 reconsidering? 

16 THE CH^MRM/vN: The question that Mr. Bond 

17 wants to reconsider is V7hether in the final analysis 

18 the decision of the Legislature or the decision of the 

19 court is to be paramount on the matters set out in 

20 Section 8 covered by the rule-making power. This was 

21 discussed in July. It was voted on in August. It v/as 



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1 voted on in September. You ready for the question? 

2 All those in favor of reconsidering the decision at the 

3 last meeting, please signify by a show of hands. 

4 Contrary? The motion is lost, four to thirteen. Any 

5 further questions as to Section 8? Mr. Scanlan. 

6 MR. SCANLAN: Until Tuesday of this week 

7 I V70uld have thought the language of this rule perfectly 

8 clear. I ara referring to the last three sentences 

9 which say the rule, if adopted or readopted after the 

10 enactment of the statutory provision, shall be paramount 

11 over the prior statutory provision to the extent of 

12 conflict. Tuesday of this V7eek I had precisely that 

13 case in the Court of Appeals, We had on the one hand 

14 Rule 605 which governs appeals in multi- 

15 claim cases. And shorthand says unless everything is 

16 decided and the Judge certifies to the contrary there 

17 is no final order until all the claims are decided. On 

18 the other hand, v/e had Article 5, Section 2 of the 

19 statute V7hich says that among the interlocutory orders 

20 that are appealable is a refusal of an injunction. I 

21 argued that the rules having been in effect adopted 



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1 subsequent to the original enactment of the legislation 

2 making interlocutory appeals should prevail. The Court 

3 of Appeals ruled against me on the grounds the 

4 statute had been codified in 1957 subsequent to the 

5 adoption of the rule and therefore, to make it perfectly 

6 clear, I would suggest the following stylistic change. 

7 Th^ rule, if adopted or readopted after the enactment 

8 or re-enactment of the statutory provision shall be 

9 paramount. In other words, the statutory provision could 

10 be enacted. A rule could be adopted and then a codifica- 

11 tion. It is arguable whether a codification is another 

12 enactment. I guess I am nit picking about this but it 

13 is rather close, to ray heart. 

14 THE CHAIRMN: Any comment? Mr. Martineau. 

15 MR. mRTINEAU: I just at first blush, Al , 

16 I think V7e don't V7ant you to lose any more cases like 

17 that. 

18 MR. SCANLAN: That is what I had in mind. 

19 MR. MARTINEAU: I think as a m.atter of 

20 clarification it probably -- v^ell, the v7ord enactment 

21 would be -- I don't know that V7ould add anything. The 



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word enactment, if you interpret that to mean codifica- 
tion, then in either case you are going to have to have 
a readoption of the rule to have a superior to the 
enactment . 

MRo SCANLAN: If it is clear in the 
Committee's mind that enactment means the last time the 
Legislature did something that continued that in effect 
as law, then it is clear. 

MR. MARTINEAU: There is no rule on that. 
It is unfortunate you had to lose a case to clarify it. 

MR. SCANLAN: I am glad I saved you some 
amending, 

MR.^ CLAGETT: I don't know a high school 
student reading this v7ould know vzhat the lav? said. 

MR. M^RTINEAU: I think that is v/hy we have 
annotated rules. 

THE CHAIRlvl:\N: Go ahead. 

MR, I-IARTII^VU: Moving on then, I hope, to 
Section 9, we have stated here a number of alternatoes 
or alternatives, I am not sure which, which we v?ere 
directed to include so as to have all of the possible 



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1 alternatives with respect to the type of residency 

2 requirement that you might have. Now Section No. 1 

3 which is the one that was adopted by the Commission at 

4 the last meeting, in effect, states that for the Supreme 

5 Court and the Appellate Court you have to reside in the 

6 appellate judicial circuit created for that court. 

7 For the Superior Court, you can either reside in or 

8 have your principal office for the practice of law in 

9 the county for which the vacancy exists and for the 

10 District Court you must reside in the district. That 

11 V7as voted and approved by the Commission at the last 

12 meeting. Alternate No. 2 has elimination of the 

13 appellate judicial circuit for the Supreme Court and 

14 the Appellate Court. In other V70rds , permitting the 

15 Judges of those courts to come from any place in the 

16 state. It also includes the provision for the Superior 

17 Court that a person can either be a resident of or have 

18 his prinicpal office for the practice of lav7 in the 

19 county for V7hich the vacancy exists and he must also 

20 then, V7ith respect to the District Court, reside in 

21 the district. Alternate 3 is the original proposal 



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1 contained in our Fourth Report, that is that you must 

2 be a resident of either the appellate judicial circuit, 
5 the county, or district for V7hich the vacancy is and 

4 there is no provision for having your principal office 

5 for the practice of law. That was as proposed in our 

6 Fourth Report. The Commission amended it with respect 

7 to the Superior Court to provide for the eligibility of 

8 a person who has his principal office for the practice 

9 of law in a county where the vacancy exists. Then 

10 No. 4 applies the idea of qualifying a person to sit 

11 on the Supreme Court and Appellate Court where he either 

12 resides or has his principal office for the practice 

13 of law. That Is extending the idea applied by this 

14 Commission to the Superior Court to the Supreme Court 

15 and Appellate Court. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

17 MR. SAYRE: Is there a motion? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I have the idea but I have 

19 lost the specifics. 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: Didn't we vote on all 

21 these questions at the last meeting? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: These are all voted and 

2 recommitted to the Committee to make the changes. 

3 They are just reporting on the changes made. 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: Why are V7e faced v/ith four 

5 alternatives? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Because the Committee decided 

7 to submit the alternatives to the Convention in the 

8 report. 

9 MR. MARTINEAU: The Committee didn't decide 

10 that. The Commission instructed us to. 

11 THE CEAIRMAN: The Commission made that 

12 determination. Section b. 

13 MR.- SAYRE: V7hich is in force? 

14 MR. MARTINEAU: The very first one. It v;as 

15 adopted by the Commission. 

16 MR. CIAGETT: I move its adoption. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: It already has been done. 

18 MR.. SAYRE: Is reconsideration in order or 

19 proper from your viewpoint? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody V7ants to move it 

21 under our rules they can. I think V7e discussed it at 



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1 great length and ended up with the resolution the way 

2 it is . 

5 MR. SAYRE: I move reconsideration for the 

4 consideration of alternate No. 2. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? The 

6 motion dies for lack of a second. Section B. 

7 MR. RARTINEAU: The only change in B is 

8 changing the phrase the office of Judge to a judicial 

9 office because that is the phrase used in Section a and 

10 the only reason for that change. Section Cl, we have 

11 only added the V7ord in the last sentence. It doesn't 

12 add anything to it and the same thing in Section C2, 

13 in C3, V7e have' added the word exclusively to clear up 

14 the matter that I discussed before. In Section 4, 

15 the term in the second sentence we are changing the 

16 word chosen to appointed to be consistent with the 

17 other language in the section. In 5, vie have added the 

18 word state or local in compliance v;ith the request at 

19 the last meeting of the Commission to make it clear that 

20 we are not talking about a federal office or some other 

21 office that is not included within the words state or 



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local. Section 10 the ter- -i£ irir rri::: fr;- 1- 
2 CO 10 in accordance viir. i..= .:ie ai r'-e lis- z.-- - 

\ 

Z cr tr.e piMiii rsion. In the next sentence the vords, 

the vcrd throughout h=£ be=- ciJL-^ii -: cf z'z.i. i'lire 



4 
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the larg-i-gi ir. : t: : i= again serelj trvir.z re 

election or re-elect i:r .: i: :.:z : 

was required tc resiz: -"-:- z--:i.vz^i zz i'-= cc 



district ;-- ..i:r. . :ffice i . — :. i ri; i: 

take out the vcrc rc^-iir;; tc resi"; *: : : : £ e cf t' e 

13 I change in the lar.g-cage adopted i- : _ : :i£5L: _: 

14 I him eligible to be appointed in a cc--: "r 

15 I doesn't reside, "he vcri eiiclusively has a^i- - '• 

I 

16 added tc clarify the rule-oaklng power. 

17 Movir.g to 11, there have been no changes. 

18 >R. EZILA: Yr . Chairz^^, just one point, 

19 ' I vculc like the recc.^ :. ...: zz .^zsl that I have 

20 no objection to Section 10 except that nonconpetitive 

21 election. 



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THE CHAIRmN: I think the record is already 
clear on that, Mr. Delia. 

MR. MARTINEAU: Moving on to Section 12, 
I would like to read to you some changes in the language 
that the Committee has thought would be better and 
the principal purpose of the change in the language is 
to include pensions in the compensation which cannot be 
reduced. It was brought to our attention by the Supreme 
Bench that they felt that if you are going to give 
the Judges the protection of not reducing their compen- 
sation, the same principle should apply to not reducing 
their pensions and the Committee considered this and 
thought that it. was, that it should be included in here. 
So I will read the language as I think it should be, 
as the Committee has agreed Section 12 should be. 

It will start out, each Judge shall be, and 
then insert the word paid and then the next word V7ill 
be compensation rather than compensated, each Judge 
shall be paid compensation for his judicial service 
solely by the state. Then the next sentence is the same 
except beginning with the v7ords during his continuance 



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1 in office, or that phrase would be deleted and the 

2 sentence will read merely the compensation of a Judge 
5 shall not be reduced — period. We are deleting the 

4 rest of that sentence. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Say that again. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: The compensation of a Judge 

7 shall not be reduced. We are deleting the v7ords during 

8 his continuance in office. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us the reason 

10 for that? 

11 MR. MARTIITEAU: Yes, if we are going to put 

12 in here as V7e are suggesting that you can't reduce 

13 the pension he Is no longer in office when he is 

14 retired and you reduce his pension after he is off the 

15 Bench. We vrant to prevent that. 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: May I ask a question? 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Judge Adkins . 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: If this Constitution is 

19 adopted, is the net effect of it to say that all 

20 Judges must be paid the highest salary which any Judge 

21 is nov7 receiving from all sources? 



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1 MR. KA.RTINEAU: Let me read on. Let me 

2 finish reading the entire section that we propose and 

3 that may ansv;er som.e of the questions you might have. 

4 We then delete the entire next sentence relating to 

5 pensions. 

6 MRS. FREEDLANDER: V?hich sentence? 

7 MR. M4RTINEAU: Provision shall be m.ade 

8 by law for pension based on length of service of Judges 

9 and their surviving spouses, delete that. Beginning at 
10 the bottom of page 10, the last sentence at the bottom 
H of Page 10 going over to the top of Page 11. 

12 - HR. MILLER: \7hat did you delete? 

13 MR^ MA.RTINEAU: The sentence beginning at 

14r the bottom of Page 10 beginning with the v;ords provision 

15 shall be made by lav7 for the payment of pensions based 

16 on length of service to Judges and their surviving 

IV spouses. We are deleting that. In the next sentence 

18 beginning V7ith the v7ords the same compensation we are 

19 deleting the phrase including pensions. In other words, 

20 the 4th. and 5th- v7ords in the first sentence on Page 

21 11 are deleted, the words including pensions. Then at 



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1 the end of that section we are including the following 

2 phrase, or the follov/ing sentence rather. 

3 Compensat3-on means salary during continuance 

4 in office and pensions based on length of service 

6 payable to a retired Judge and his surviving spouse. 

6 Now let me read it. The section 12 as rephrased the 

7 CoiTEnittee recommendation for Section 12 is as follows: 

8 Each Judge shall be paid compensation for 

9 his judicial service solely by the state. The compen- 

10 sation of a Judge shall not be reduced. The same 

11 compensation shall be paid to all Judges of the same 

12 court except that the sam.e" reduction in compensation of 

13 the Judges of the same court may be made applicable to 

14 all Judges thereof appointed after the effective date 

15 of the reduction. Compensation means salary during 

16 continuance in office and pension based on length of 

17 service payable to a retired Judge and his surviving 

18 spouse. 

19 MR. MINDEL: And or is it or? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: He said and, salary during 

21 office and pension after. 



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1 MR. MINDEL: Retired Judge and/or his wife. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: That is what we mean but 

3 we don't V7ant to put that language in here. 

4 DR. BARD: Do you need his? It could be 

5 hers. Why not knock out hers. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute, we are not 

7 getting a record. The suggestion is you eliminate his 

8 before her. 

9 DR. BARD: Yes, knock that out. 

10 THE CHAIR14-^N: Leave that to the Committee 

11 on Style. 

12 ' MR. CLAGETT: You don't want it. 

13 MR.' MILIER: It starts out except that the 

14 same reduction. Without it be any reduction or a 

15 reduction. There has been no reduction talked about 

16 before, has there? 

17 MR, MARTINEAU: We provided that. 

18 THE CRAIRMAN: No, he is right. 

19 MR. M^\RTINEAU: The compensation of a Judge 

20 shall not be reduced. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: He is talking about the added 



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MR. MARTINEAU: When we say the same 
reduction. 

THE CHAIRMAN: He means a reduction on a 
uniform basis . 

MR. MRTINEAU: We mean a uniform reduction. 

THE CKAIRi'IAN: Can you leave that to the 
Committee on Style? 

MR. MILLER: Certainly. It just reads 
awkward. 

THE CHAIRI'IAN: It is av7kv7ard. Mr. Martineau, 
I have some difficulties with several provisions. 
No. 1, it just occurred to me, and it never hit me before, 
but v7ouldn't the second sentence of this paragraph either 
in its original form or as revised be in conflict with 
the last sentence of Section 13? Don't we need a cross 
reference? That is the provision that permits the 
continuance of a pension at a reduced rate to a renx)ved 
Judge . 

MR. MARTINEAU: Yes. 

MRS, FREEDLANDER: Except as otherwise 



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1 provided. 

2 MR. RODOWSKY: The compensation in revised 

3 language modifies Judge by the word retired. 

4 THE CR-MRMAN: That is my second question. 

5 Where does that leave the removed Judge with respect 

6 to the definition. 

7 MR. RODOWSKY: It v;ould leave him under 

8 Section 13 and whatever the order of removal provided. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps so. My other question 

10 has to do with that last language. You use the 

11 phrase pension based on length of service and by 

12 definition that is compensation and by the second 

13 sentence that is V7hat shall not be reduced. 

14 MR. KARTINEiMJ: That's correct. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Doss that permit the 

15 Legislature to provide a pension based on something 

17 other than length of service and not be subject to this 

18 prohibition against reduction? 

19 MR, MARTII^AU: I think the only compensation 

20 he can receive is v;hat is defined in here under the 

21 term compensation which is a pension based on length of 



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1 service. He can't receive anything else. 

2 THE CHAIPvMAN: Do you think it says that? 

3 MR. MARTINEAU: Well, the last paragraph 
4r says that no Judge can receive anything except as 

5 provided herein, the remuneration provided herein for 

6 his judicial service. 

7 THE CHAIRl^IAN: What is the reason for saying 

8 a pension must be one based on length of service? 

9 MR. MRTINEAU: Well, vze are trying to 

10 avoid the problem of the requirement that compensation 

11 be equal. In other words, the Judge v;ho has served, 

12 if you didn't have based on length of service, this was 

13 at the last meeting of the Commission and you had the 

14 requirement for equality the man v7ho served one year 

15 would be entitled to the same pension as the man v-^ho 

16 served twenty years and we want to avoid that. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: I think I had the same 

18 problem you did, Mr. Chairman. My question is suppose 

19 the Legislature passed a law V7hich increased the 

20 pension of all retired Judges by $5000 annually. V/ould 

21 this language prohibit the Legislature from doing that? 



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1 MR. mRTINEAU: No, what they would do, it 

2 seems to me, is to change the payment for length of 

3 service. In other V70rds , they v7ouldn't arbitrarily say 
^ $5000. They would say each Judge shall receive so much 
5 for each year of service and that is hov? they V70uld 

increase it. 

''' MR. SCANLAN: In other words, any pens ion ^ 

® av7arded to retired Judges v7ould have some relation to 

^ length of service? 

10 MR, M4RTINEAU: Yes. 

11 THE cmiRM/\N: Mr. Miller. 

1^ MR. MILLER: There may be something else 

1^ in here but it occurs to me the way this is worded it 

1"^ says no Judge shall engage in the practice of lav7. 
15 THE CliAIRMN: VJe'll wait before you get 

1^ to that paragraph. Let's see if there are any more 

17 questions as to the first paragraph. 
IS MR. MARTINEAU: Want me to answer your 

19 question? Our idea is -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: The record is not going to 



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^■^ show v/bat question you are ansv7ering. 



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JUDGE ADKINS: I have already asked it. 
Is it the effect of this provision to require all Judges 
to be paid at the highest rate at which any Judge is 
being paid from all sources? I read it to say that 
it will. In other words, the Judges who have just been 
supplemented to the extent of $30,000 in Prince Georges 
County. 

MR. CIAGETT: Let*s get that straight, it 
is Montgomery County and it has been reduced. 

MR, SCANIJiN: And they are still overpaying 
them. 

JUDGE ADKINS : ' If Montgomery County should 
elect hereafter to pay its Judges $30,000 a year by 
supplement prior to the adoption of this Constitution, 
I read this as saying that that compensation vrould be the 
amount required to be paid to all Judges since no Judge's 
salary can be reduced and since all Judges must be 
paid equal. Now there is no reference here to the fact 
that this means compensation from state sources. My 
query is am I V7rong. 

THE ClLMRmN: Wrong. 



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^ MR. M\RTINEAU; We are not covering that. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: Why? 

3 MR. MARTINEAU: We are not covering that 
^ situation. That is going to have to be covered in the 
5 schedule. In other words, we are not freezing anybody 

in. 

'^ THE CHAIRMAN: I think you better tell him 

° first that the reason his statement wouldn't be correct 

is that the Constitition will die with the adoption of 

the nev7 one so all protection on existing salaries is 

gone. 

JUDGE ADKINS; That is not my point, Mr. 
^^ Chairman. Immediately after the adoption. 
^^ MR, MARTINEAU: Inmediately after the 

^^ adoption the Legislature V7ill have to pass a law to say 
^^ what the Judges will see. 

^'^ JUDGE ADKINS: Immediately after the 

^^ adoption of the nev7 Constitution. 
^^ THE CHAIK-IAN: All protection for Judges' 

salaries is gone and it is not possible to have any 

supplementation. 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: Can you repeal an existing 

2 constitutional protection V7hich is now held and reduce 

3 that constitutional protection? 

4: TIIE CHAIRMAN: People are supreme, I think. 

5 Ma. MILLER: I think it would apply. I 

6 don't like to disagree with your legal interpretation 

7 but I think under the Constitution of the United States 

8 they wouldn't be able to reduce the salary of a city 

9 judge until his terra had run out. 

10 14R. MA.RTINEAU: I have yet to hear of any 

11 application of the contract clause to a salary payable 

12 by a state to a public official. 

13 DR. BURDETTE: If it was established by 

14 contract it v7ould. 

15 MR. MARTINEAU: It is not established by 

16 contract. It is established by law. 

17 THE CHAIR1<1\N: Let roe cut across with this 

18 statement. V/hether that is or is not the law, the 

19 Commission, I am quite sure, is not going to recommend 

20 a continuance of the situation which would have that 

21 effect and we requested the Committee, therefore, to 



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1 study the question of how best to provide for the 

2 protection of the existing salary and that is v;hat Mr. 

3 Martineau was about to comment on. Go ahead, Mr. 

4 Martineau. 

5 MR. K\RTINEAU: The comment I was about to 

6 make was that we are going to have to provide in the 

7 schedule for the continuance of the salary of the 

8 present -- first of all we are going to have to provide 

9 for the continuation in office of the present Judges. 

10 I don't think anybody would claira that even though 

11 the Constitution may be. repealed that those people 

12 still have a right to continue in office based upon some 

13 theory of contract. But nonetheless -- 

14 DR. BURDETTE: I would argue that. I 

15 would make a consent that they could be discontinued 

16 but would still have to be paid. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: You went Webster one better. 
16 (Laughter) 

19 MR. M;\RTIN};:AU: Nonetheless, going one 

20 better, first of all, as I say, we are going to have to 

21 provide for the cent iv\unt ioii in office of the Judges and 



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1 then going to have to provide what salaries these 

2 Judges are going to receive and the Committee has not 

3 made any decision on this. We are goD.ng to have to 

^ decide whether those Judges who are in office and who 

5 went on the Bench V7ith the idea of receiving a particular 

^ amount of money that was not able to be reduced are 

^ going to be frozen in at that salary level. I don't 

Q knov7 frankly V7hat the Committee is going to recommend 

^ on this. My ovTn inclination would be that any Judge 

^^ who is on the Bench right now receiving a salary of 

^^ a particular amount of money should be entitled to receive 

that as long as he remains in office. Of course, any 
^3 Judge coming on after the adoption of the new Constitu- 
^^ tion will receive the salary which is set by the Legis- 
ts lature. This will be something that the Commission can 
1^ vote on at a later time when it considers the schedule 
^^ that we V7ill propose. 

16 THE CH/illlMAN: Next meeting. 

1^ MR. MILLER: You said as long as he is 

in office or until his term expires. 

MR. MARTINEAU: During his continuance in 



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^ office. 

2 MR. MILLER: Or his re-election. 

3 MR, MARTINEAU: My own inclination v/ould 
^ be that it should apply as long as he continues in 

5 office, I think the idea of the Judge's term expiring 

^ really is not a valid one. Under the concept V7e have 

"^ in this, he really is in office until he is retired or 

® he is booted out by the electorate and the function 

^ of the term V7hich is ten years is not really that his 

term expires but that really he must go before the 
electorate each ten years to be continued in office. 
This is my ovTn personal view of it. 
"^^ MR, MILLER ° I v/as thinking under the 

^^ present Constitution that the present Judges, I don't 

^5 think V7e would owe them obligation to a salary if it 

^^ was in excess of V7hat the new Constitution called for 

^^ after the term for which they V7ere elected has exp5.red. 

IQ THE CIiAIRM:\N: That's part of the very 

^^ thorny problem the Committee has to wrestle with. 

Mr. Delia. 

MR, DELIA: Mr. Martineau, the unions have 

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done the same thing. They have an evaluator come into 
the plant and find the salary is vjay up over what it 
should be and they sort of red circle it. When the 
man leaves the job, the new man gets the new rate. 

MR. MARTINEAU: I think the Judges 'union 
will insist upon this. 

MR. GENTRY: I move the adoption of Section 
12 as revised by the Committee. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Under our practice, you don't 
have to move the adoption. VJe have another paragraph. 

MR. MILLER: This last paragraph disturbs 
me in some respects. It V70uld seem to indicate it 
was not something somewhere else. For instance, one 
of our very distinguished members of this organization 
might be disqualified from practicing law because he 
had once been a Judge. Is that V7hat this means? 

MR. MRTINEAU: No. If a man is no longer 
in office, he is no longer a Judge. This prohibition 
applies only to Judges obviously. 

MR. MILLER: Is that all it is? 

MR. MARTINEAU: That is certainly our 



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1 intention. I don't know hov; else we could state it 

2 more clearly. 

5 DR. BURDETTE: The way to do that is say in 

^ office because somebody is going to argue a retired 

5 Judge is still a Judge. 

6 THE cmiR>lAN: Particularly in view of 
'i the provision for recalling retired Judges. 

8 MR. DELIA: Couldn't you have no Judge 

9 while in office? 

^^ MR.MARTINEAU: Couldn't your Committee take 

^^ that into consideration? 

^2 MR. M^RTINEAU:' Yes, sir. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: I think the pension law would 

1^ probably make it exactly. I think that is how it v;ould 

15 be handled rather than putting the prohibition in the 

IS Constitution, that the law establish the pension fund and 

1'7 would provide it V7ould cease upon the retired Judge 

18 engaging in any prohibitive activity. 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: You can't do that because you 
have given him a constitutional guarantee that their 



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^^ pension won't be reduced so you have to put it in here. 



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1 The Legislature could not pass a law, I suggest, 

2 providing that they would forget their pension in the 

3 event that they went back to the active practice of 

4 law after retirement because they have a constitutional 

5 guarantee of their pension which you cannot violate. 

6 MR. MAPvTINEAU: My own personal vievz would 

7 be that the Legislature in carrying out its function 

8 of providing pensions can put certain limitations on it 

9 and it may be that a man not be engaged in any action 

10 on behalf of an alien government or engaged in treasonable 

11 activities and many other sorts of things that could 

12 bie a disqualification, perhaps the conviction of a 

13 felony could be a disqualification. I don*t think this 

14 V70uld prohibit the Legislature from doing that. 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: I think this is a very 

16 serious question. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I vzould incline to agree 

18 there is a question in v5.ev7 of your new definition 

19 that compensation means pension paid to a retired Judge, 

20 a pension based on length of service. This would almost 

21 seem to exclude any other consideration than length of 



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service, 

MR. mRTINEAU: Well, I don't know whether 
the words added in there as provided by law would help 
that or not. 

JUDGE- ADKINS: V7hy not just add the language 
no Judge during his service or during the time V7hen 
he is receiving state retirement, V7ords to that 
effect. 



MR. Ki^RTINEAU: I vjould have no objection 



to that. 



JUDGE ADKINS: That V70uld clarify it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: VJhat is the suggested 
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language? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Well, I amperfectly willing 
to leave the language to the Coiii:nittee, simply modify 
the term Judge by specifying during the period of his 
tenure in office or during the period in vjhich he is 
drawing retirement shall not engage in the practice of 
law. 



DR. BURDETTE: V7hy do you want to put 



retiremont? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I assume the purpose is to 

2 provide that the Judge receiving pension as a retired 

3 Judge shall not engage in the practice of law. 

^ DR. BURDETTE: But there are so many other 

5 things he can't do. He couldn't even serve as a campaign 

6 manager for your campaign for Governor and I don't 

7 thi-nk that should be in there, but his retirement. 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: It is V7ell engaged in the 

9 state nov7 and has been for tuenty years and I would 

10 hate to see it changed by what amounts to inadvertance 

H at this meeting. This has been a very controversial 

matter. » 
13 DR. BURDETTE: Retired Judges must be 

1^ political units. 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: Me don't want the retired 

16 Judges subsidized by the state if you want to put it 
IV that v;ay. 

18 MR. MILLER: In that connection, Dale, if 

19 a Judge, es some of them do, retire at a young age and 

20 practice law, is their pension automatically ceased 
while they are practicing lav? or if, as they grow older. 



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^ they decide not to practice law, could they then drav; 
^ their pension? I think a great many of the Federal 
3 pensions are based -- you can't draw the pension V7hile 
you are doing something but you don't lose the pension 
^ just because you have done something. 
^ THE CHAIRl'IAN: I take it, Judge Adkins, it is 

' the former that you have in mind in suggesting the 

ft 

° change, namely that the introduction of these various 

practices is only mildly m.ention as being accepted, 
JUDGE ADKINS: I V70uld like to have it 
written as the statute nov7 provides and I am not clear 
of the statute at the moment. 
^^ THE CHAIRMAN: You mean the statewide statute, 

^^ not the Baltimore City statute? 

^^ JUDGE ADKINS: The present statewide 

^" statute on retirement of Judges o I think the substance 
^' if we are going to provide pensions is as a constitutional 
protection, I personally have a serious caveat in my 
thinking to that v^hole concept, but if we are going to 
do that, V7e should restrict it to the concept as provided 
in the statev/ide statute on pensions for Judges and I 

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1 am willing to leave it to the Committee to do that. 

2 DR. BURDETTE: Hox7 in the world, I guess it 

3 is the practice in t he State of Maryland, Judge Gray 

4 has served as a Citizens Committee to get something 

5 done for the citizens of Maryland. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: Judge Gray receives the 

7 same compensation as you do for this, 

8 DR. BURDETTE: Hold no office in a 

9 political party or organization. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: You are talking about a 

11 different section, 

12 DR. BURDETTE: ' Can a retired Judge get out 

13 on a Citizens Committee and try to get a referendum 

14 adopted? , 

15 MR. mRTINEAU: I would think so. 

16 DR. BURDETTE: I think he should be permitted 

17 to. 

18 MR. SAYRE: On this point could we 

19 request that the Committee draft on this one point 

20 a position as to V7hether a person forfeits his pension 

21 if he practices lav? or if it is merely suspended while 



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practicing law. 

MR. MARTINEAU: I think the Commission can 
give its answer right now. Are you in favor of forfeited? 

MRS. BOTHE: I had this arise with Judge 
Adkins before. I am a little querulous about whether 
it is so necessary to grant constitutional protection 
to pensions. I am sure they will be perpetuated 
sta tutor ially and these problems of when the pension 
can be cut off and under V7hat circumstances the v/ife 
can receive it or a Judge has been removed may have it 
are all going to be litigation breeders in the 
Constitution and I am v;ondering whether we couldn't 
just forget all the reference to constitutional reference 
to pensions. 

THE CR4IRKAN: Mr. Sayre. 

MRS. BOTHE: As a member of the Committee, 
I would not make a motion, 

THE CHAIRMAN: May I ask the Committee this 
and maybe it will help bring this matter to a head. 
Is there any strong feeling that the provision in the 
Constitution insofar as pensions is concerned should be 



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1 compulsory rather than permissive if you provide for 

2 permissive pensions but then provide that once granted, 

3 they cannot be reduced? 

^ MR. MRTINEAU: Well, I can't speak for 

5 anybody else, but my own feeling is pensions should be 

6 compulsory, once granted they could not be reduced. I 
V think we had agreed that the proposal, as X read it, 

8 includes those two concepts and I thought it was the 

9 recommendation of the Committee. 

10 MRS. BOTHE: It was. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett. 

12 MR^ CLAGETT: 1 was thinking that the 

13 Federal practice of suspending the receipt of the 

14: benefits of the pension during the practice would be 

15 the best way of handling it but certainly not denying 

16 it permanently. Take Judge McWilliams ' situation. He 

17 V7ent on the Bench and V7as a Judge and then he developed 

18 a family of eleven children or so and he came off the 

19 Bench, in order to educate those children and after he 
had successfully accomplished that job in the practice 



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1 will retire again without the same problem, I would 

2 assume. / 

3 MR. SCANLAN: The moral of that story is 
^ he should have spent more time on the Bench. 

5 (Laughter.) 

6 MR. CLAGETT; I would ask the Committee to 

7 consider the benefits while practicing. 

8 MR. MARTINEAU: There is no feeling that 

9 there should be absolute forfeiture and unless someone 
suggests it and moves it, v;e are talking about something 

^^ that is not a problem. 

^2 MR,^ CLAGETT: If it is no problem, I don't 

13 v7ant to talk about it. 

14: THE CHAIRMAN^ Mr. Miller. 

15 MR. MILLER: The only thought I have is 

16 I would hate to see our nev? Constitution make it 

17 necessary for Judge Adkins to retire from the practice 

18 of lav7. We need him in that capacity down in Easton 

19 aiid I hate to have it constitutionally impossible. 

20 HR^ MA.RTINEAU: There v7on't be any require- 

21 ment of frofeiture unless somebody insists upon it. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Even more than that implicit 
in Mr. Miller's question there is no intention that the 
Judge, once a Judge, is thereafter forever prohibited 
from practicing lav7, 

MR. MARTINEAU: No. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette. 

DR. BURDETTE: I want to provide a la3rman's 
chuckle to a friend of mine that lavTyers are not think- 
ing that Judges on the bench are not practicing law. 
I don't think in the private practice of law I want to 
know V7hat they are doing if they are not practicing. 

MR. CLAGETT: Administering the law. 

MRS. BOTHE: I think I am correct that the 
present Constitution prohibits a reduction of salary 
but makes no mention of pension and if I am correct 
that situation has vjorked very well. 

THE CHAIRl^L'^.N: Does the present Cons tituti-on 
say salary or compensation? 

MRS. BOTHE: I V7as looking for the provision. 

GOVERNOR LANE: I think -- 

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1 become a city solicitor? 

2 MR. MARTIIn^AU: He could but he couldn't get 

3 a pension. 

^ DR. BARD: I am just wondering how that 

5 v7ould work in Baltimore County. 

6 THE CIL^IRMAN: The Constitution now says 
'^ nor shall the salary or compensation of any public 

Q officer be increased or diminished during the term of 

^ office. 
^^ MR. MARTINEAU: There is an exception to that 

^^ for the judiciary some place. 

^^ MR. BROOKS: It came in as an amendment to 

^^ the Constitution. 

i^ THE CHAIRM/\N: The amendment is 35A, nothing 

15 in the Constitution shall exempt the salary or compensa- 
tion of any Judge -- 



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the salary of the Judge during the term of office. 



1^ There is an amendment to permit that. 



MR. RMLE: Article 4, Section 24. 



^^ THE CtL\IRmN: Article 4, 24? 



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1 MR. HAILE: Yes, sir. It says salary shall 

2 not be reduced. 

3 THE CHAIPvJlAN: This says salary of each 

4 Chief Judge and each Judge of the Circuit Court shall 

5 not be diminished during his continuance in office. 

6 MRS. K)THE: That is salaries. 

V THE CHAIRMAN: That was the amendment in 

8 1956. 

9 MR. MRTINEAU: The Committee's recommen- 

10 dation which I just presented was that the pensions be 

11 included in the protection that they shall not be 
reduced. I suppose -- well, that V7ill be adopted unless 

13 someone makes a motion to the contrary. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry, in view of the 

15 considerable discussion, perhaps vze ought to have a 

16 motion with respect to Section 12. Do you care to make 

17 it? 

18 MRe GENTIiY: I move the adoption of Section 

19 12 as submitted to get it on the floor. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN : As submitted subject to the 

21 matter to be reconsidered by the Comjiiittee. 



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1 MR. GENTRY: Yes. 

2 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I second it. 

3 MR. BOND: Does the motion include Judge 

4 Adkins * suggestion after the V7ord Judge on the f5.rst 

5 line of the last paragraph, it will be some language 

6 during his tenure or retirement. 

7 THE CHAIRM'^N: It would. 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: Am I out of order, Mr. 

9 Chairman, in making an amendment to that motion that 

10 it be approved subject to the elimination of the guarantee 

11 of constutitional guarantee for pensions? 

12 THg CHAIRI'IAN: In other V7ords , it permits 

13 pensions be permissive and not compulsory. You 

14 accept it, Mr. Gentry? 

15 MR. GENTRY: Yes. 

16 TlIE CRAIRMAN: The motion, therefore, would 

17 be that the principles set forth in Section 12 as 

18 amended by Mr. Martineau as he announced V7ith the 

19 further change by the addition of the language suggested 

20 by Judge Adkins after the v^ords no Judge in the second 

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for pensions be permissive and not mandatory be 
approved. Mr. Delia. 

MR. DELIA: V/ould this take care of the 
problem of a Judge coming of f the Bench and then going 
into the practice of law V7here he V70uldn't receive his 
pension while practicing lav;? 

THE CHAiRiviAN: Yes. 

MR. DELIA: The way it is vrritten now it is 
like a contract, it would be regardless of what he 
wanted to do, the Constitution says he is entitled to 
a pension. 

THE CHAIRmN; If the motion were carried 
out, the provisions in the pension lav7 would have 
affect whatever they might be. Any discussion of the 
motion? 

MR. BROOKS: One question, on that first 
change, paid compensation that doesn't really make any 
difference. 

MR. MARTIlN^AU: No. 

MR. BROOKS: It looks like that kind of 
thing though, still be free for the Style Committee to 



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1 work on even though you are making a change? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN; Oh, yes. Any further 

3 discussion? 

4 MR. MARTINEAU: May I comment on that? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: The effect of the motion 

7 would be to change the Committee's recommendation that 

8 pensions be given the constitutional protection. I 

9 believe that discussion is that the Committee had on 

10 this very briefly, based upon the recoirmendations of 

11 the Supreme Bench that this is an important feature 

12 that it may be, that the Legislature could in some V7ay 

13 attempt to influence the judiciary by raising or lowering 

14 their pensions and this v/ould, to a certain extent, 

15 be the same evil that could result from the Legislature 

16 lowering the salaries of the Judges while they are in 

17 office. You have put in the prohibition against lov7ering 

18 the salaries. It seems to me that the very same principle 

19 should apply to the lov7ering of pensions. If you are 

20 trying to protect the judiciary from any financial loss 

21 because of a decision that a member of the judiciary 
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1 as well as to salaries. As a matter of fact, a Judge 

2 who is getting near to retirement it may be even more 

3 important. For that reason X would hope the motion 
^ would fail. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry, would you consider 

^ amending your rootion so as to provide that although 

^ pensions, the system of pensions would be permissive 

® and not compulsory that nevertheless the Constitution 

^ should provide that once granted, they should not be 

^^ reduced, 

^■^ MR. GENTRY: You mean once a Judge V70uld 

start on pensipn, it could never be eliminated? 

13 THE CRAIRMAN: That's right. 

'^^ MR. GENTRY: No. 

15 j^^ SAYRE: Except vjhen in the practice of 

16 law. 

^'^ THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

IQ MR. ClAGETT: Except V7hen he was practicing 

1^ lav7 or V7hile he was practicing law. 

MR. GENTRY: It could be. 



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1 simply the Legislature could not provide a system of 

2 pensions for Judges in one session and then at the 

3 next session cut them in half. I am not talking about 

4 the elimira tion of the restriction on practice of law 

5 while receiving the pension. 

6 MR. GENIT^Y: It can be V7orded that v/ay, 

7 yes, I would agree to that. 

8 THE CKAIRM^N: Judge Adkins , would that meet 

9 your point? 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: So long as it is completely 

11 permissive. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Permissive except that once 

13 adopted, it could not then be reduced except for 

14 reasons like the practice of lav;. Would that meet your 

15 point, Mr. Martineau? 

16 MR. MARTINEAU: No, it would not. 

17 THE CHi^.IRM^N: I understood it v7ould not 

18 meet your V7hole objection. Would it meet your last 

19 point? 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: It V70uld meet that narrow 

21 point but that, of course, is meeting the minor point. 



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1 doesn't avoid the major problem. V/e still would 

2 insist that the requirement be included, that pensions 

3 be given as well as salary. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you have 

5 stated in the record the reasons vzhy you feel it is 

^ imperative that pensions be provided. 

'^ MR. MRTINEAU: No, the matter hasn't been 

^ up for discussion. The Coinnission at the last meeting 

^ included , adopted the principle that pensions be required 
for Judges, It seems to me that the reason for it would 

^^ be the same reasons we were giving the other protections 

12 

^^ to the judiciary. We want to get on the Bench the 

^^ best qualified persons. This is not going to happen if 

^^ we do not have a pens5.on system. Judges must under 

^^ this Constitution retire at age seventy. I think you 

1^ are seriously interfering with the obtaining of the 

"^^ highest type of judicial caliber if there V7as no 

^® guarantee that the Judges be given pensions. Maybe I 

1^ am talking about a problem thi t is not going to exist 
because everybody else gets a pension and I suppose it 



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1 not granting pensions to the Judges as well as to every 

2 body else. But I still would prefer the requirement 

3 be in the Constitution. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry. 

5 MR. GENTRY: I think we look at it as a 

6 pension system, perhaps use the word pension system in 

7 here, I would have no quarrel vjith that. But Mr. 

8 Martineau keeps talking in terms of a Judge's pension 

9 being reduced, I V7ould be against a Judge's pension 

10 being reduced also but perhaps if we switch over to a 

11 pension system instead of pensions for the Judges. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

13 Are you ready for the question? The question arises 

14 on the motion to approve Section 12 as modified by the 

15 Committee and announced by Mr. Martineau vjith the 

16 additional two modifications that the second paragraph 

17 be amended by inserting after the words no Judge, 

18 appropriate language to indicate that the prohibitions 

19 apply during his continuance in office or during the 

20 time that he V7as receiving a pension and with the 

21 further modification that the provisions with respect 



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1 to pensions be made permissive and not mandatory 

2 except that pensions once granted could not be reduced. 

3 Ready for the question? All those in favor, signify 

4 by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion is carried 

5 fifteen to five. Any further discussion with respect 

6 to Section 12? Mr. Martineau, Section 13. 

7 MR. MARTINEAU: Section 13 has inserted in 

8 it the requirement that there be a hearing. This was 

9 directed at the last m.eeting of the Commission. It 

10 again includes the language that the Supreme Court may 

11 by rule or order exclusively, in other v^^ords , that the 

12 Legislature cannot interfere with the operation of 

13 this section by statute amending a rule so that the 

14 pov7er is in the court exclusively to implement and 

15 enforce the section. The changes in the last sentence 

16 on Page 11 are merely attempting to tighten up the 

17 language and are not intended- to change any substance. 

18 THE CE^aR>i^N: Any questions? 

19 MR. CJAGETT: 1 merely point out the Committee 

20 on Style is pretty definitive. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: I assume the word hearing here 



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1 is intended to embrace all the rights required under 

2 due process, confrontation, cross-examination, 

3 timely notice, et cetera. 

4 MR. MARTINEAU: Absolutely. We don't want 

5 to write a due process clause in. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of 

7 this section? Section 14. 

8 MR. MARTINEAU: Section 14 was not changed 

9 at all except to add the v7ord exclusively in the 

10 last line. 

11 THE CHAIRl'IAN: Any question? All right, now, 

12 Mr. Martineau, you have one other matter. 

13 MR. H\RTINEAU: Yes, I do want to bring 

14 to the attention of the Commission a com-tiunication 

15 from Judge Pendergast as the Chairman of a special 

16 committee of the Supreme Bench of Baltimore City detailing 

17 certain objections of the Supreme Bench to the judiciary 

18 article as adopted by this Commission. I don't v^ant 

19 to run through all the items. I am not going to run 

20 through any of the objections stated in tliis letter. 

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Commission. I might say, however, that I believe that 
all of the objections raised by the letter have either 
been considered by the Committee in its committee 
meetings or have been considered by this Commission 
in considering the report of the Judiciary Committee 
and I don't believe that there is any nev; matter in here 
which should be considered except perhaps one thing. 
This is going to be handled by a modification of a comment 
in our report. One of the items mentioned was whether 
the, in each county or in each administrative district, 
however, the court system is set up, there should be, 
whether there would be some Judge in that jurisdiction 
v/ho V70uld have some sort of control over the Judges of 
the court. In other v/ords , a sub-Chief Judge or 
presiding Judge or a president Judge or v;hatever you 
want to call him. 

In other v7ords , someone to take the place 
of the Chief Judge of the Supreme Bench who V70uld 
have some authority with respect to the particular 
city or the particular county. Now it seems to me that 
there is no reason to mention such an authority in the 



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Constitution. I believe the Supreme Court in a rule 
governing the administration of the court could very 
well provide that the senior Judge or some Judge 
designated by the Chief Justice or Supreme Court could 
have this authority, V7hatever it might be and I think 
it v7ould be sufficient to mention that in the comment 
to our, one of the comments to our report rather than 
putting it in the Constitution itself. I don't believe 
it arises to the constitutional level. There are a 
number of other points raised in the letter. I don't 
think any of them have not been considered and if any- 
one, of course, wants to raise it, raise any of the 
points after reading the letter v/hen you receive it, 
you are, of course, free to do so. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question concern- 
ing the Fifth Report? If not, we V7ill proceed to a 
consideration of the report of the Committee on the 
Executive Department. This is the Sixth Report. V7hile 
you are getting that together, let's take the opportunity 

for a short recess. 

(Short recess.) 
THE CHAIRMAN: VJe will now take up the 



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consideration of the Sixth Report of the Committee on 
the Executive Department. Judge Adkins. 

JUDGE ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, I see no point 
unless you or the Commission desire it to read the first 
four sections of this report since the changes, although 
we have not been as farsighted as the Judiciary Committee 
in underlining, are fairly simple. With your per- 
mission, I will refer to the changes we have made as 
briefly as possible. The first change is in Section 5B. 

THE CHAIRMAN: 5B? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Yes, eight lines from the 
bottom of Page, 2. We have inserted in here language 
the essence of v;hich is to permit the General Assembly 
to call itself into session to determine vzhether the 
Governor is disabled. This is the result of a 
Commission decision at the last meeting. The language 
V7e are proposing reads as follows. The General Assembly 
shall be convened by the presiding officers of both 
houses. upon the written request of the members of each 
house to determine V7hether such a declaration should be 
passed. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN; Is there a question? 

2 MR. SCANIJ\N: Does that mean every member 

3 of both houses shall request the General Assembly shall 

4 be convened? 

5 JUDGE ADKINS: My reporter tells me that 

6 it should be upon the written request of the majority 

7 of each house. 

8 THE CHAIR1-L\N: VZhich line? 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: That would be Line 6 from 

10 the bottom. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Of Section B. 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: Of Section B on Page 2. 

13 " MR. M^'RTItTEAU: From the bottom of the 

14 page, Mr. Eney. 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: The second sentence of the 

16 second full paragraph of Paragraph B. It now reads 

17 the General Assembly shall be convened, we add after the 

18 V7ords upon the V7ritten request of, the v7ords a majority 

19 of. 

20 THE CHAIRKiAN: Any questions? Just be sure 

21 that you make the change everywhere. Would you make it 



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also on Page 16? That section is repeated on Page 16. 

JUDGE ADKINS: Yes, sir. 

MR. MILLER: There is just one weakness 
in the way this is framed. It seems to me if we are 
going to have a bicameral General Assembly or Legislature, 
it seems to me that the person who makes the call for 
this special session should be designated either the 
President of the Senate or somebody. If you have tV70 
houses, both or either, there ought to be one central 
officer who is responsible for calling that convention 
after the written request comes in. 

JUDGE ADKINS: We have provided, Ted, I 
thought V7e had answered that by saying shall be 
convened by the presiding officers of both houses. 

MRo MILLER: Suppose one house says V7e 
are going to meet next Tuesday and the other one says 
next Thursday. I think it ought to be, the actual 
call ought to go out from one particular person. 

TliE cmiRmN: Judge Adkins . 

JUDGE ADKINS: I have no object ton to 
making it by the presiding officer of the senior house 



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1 upon a written request by a majority of the members of 

2 both houses . 

3 THE CHAIRt'i/»N: I take it the two would 

4 agree for the date of the meeting, 

5 JUDGE ADKINS: That v/as our intention and 
g I can't think it would be any substantial possibility 

7 of a disagreement as to a meeting date. 

8 MR. MILLER: I don't think it is 

9 particularly important but I do think in a Constitution 

10 W6 ought to have someone responsible for carrying out 

11 this job, some one person. 

12 THE CHAIRK^N: What is your pleasure? 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: I can say we do have some- 

14 body responsible. V/e happen to have tv7o people 

15 responsible instead of one. 

15 MR. .MILLER: But they might not do the 

17 same thing? They probably would. 

13 MR, SAYRE: A solution would be a unicameral 

19 Legislature. 

20 GOVERNOR LANE: That's v;hat I am afraid of. 

21 THE CHAIRmN: I take it, Mr. Miller, the 



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1 Committee prefers to retain its present form. Do you 

2 want to move tochange it? 

3 MR. MILLER: I don't want to delay the 

4 action. 

6 THE CHAIRMN: I assure you we will put the 

6 motion so quickly it v;on't be any delay if you want 

7 to move it. 

8 MR. MILLER: I will only facetiously say if 

9 we had the Legislature able to call itself together 

10 we wouldn't have to have this anyvzay, 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: The second change is in 

12 paragraph C on Page 3, the new last sentence has 

13 been added v^hich read as follows. If a vacancy occurs 

14 in the office of President of the Senate, the President 

15 of the Senate is to succeed to the office of Governor 

16 or to serve as acting Governor, the Senate shall convene 

17 to fill the vacancy. This again was in response to a 

18 recommendation made by the Commission at the last 

19 meeting which provides in essence as we have just read. 

20 There was a hiatus in the leadership of the Senate in 

21 the event the President of the Senate V70uld succeed 



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1 either to the acting Governorship or to the Governship 

2 under the provisions otherwise provided. 

3 MR, DELIA: Can this be deterrained at that 

4 time vJhether it will be a temporary or permanent 

5 vacancy? 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: V7ell, I am not sure I under- 

7 stand your question, Mr. Delia. 

8 MR, DELIA: Let's say the Governor is only 

9 going to be out for a definite period of time but it 

10 is known how long he is going to be out and the 

11 President of the Senate knov7S how long he V7ill be out. 

12 It will be a temporary nature. Are you saying the 

13 Senate shall convene to select a replacement? 

14: JUDGE ADKINS s I would assume that the 

16 vacancy would not occur until such time as the 

16 President of the Senate had succeeded to the office and" 

17 V7as not acting. 

18 THE CMIRK\N: That's right. 

19 MR, CLAGETT: There is some other vacancy. 

20 THE CHAERMA.N: You specifically provide 

21 that the President retains his seat in the Senate unless 



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1 he becomes disabled. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: He ceases tx) be President of 

3 the Senate if he becomes Governor, 

4: MRS. FREEDLANDER: Judge Adkins , you are 

5 not going to fill the office of the Lieutenant Governor. 

6 That hiatus will remain. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: That will remain. 

8 DR. BURDETTE: Isn't there a contradiction 

9 of the language? If the President of the Senate 

10 succeeds in the office of the Governor or serves as 

11 acting Governor this Constitution mandates the Senate 

12 to fill the vacancy. 

13 THE CHAIPJ1A.N: I don't think that is true 

14 in the latter part of your sentence, if he serves 

15 as acting Governor the office of President of the 

16 Senate is not vacant. That is expressly provided. 

17 DR. BURDETTE: I thought that was expressly 

18 intended, 

19 THE CH/MPJNL^N: It is expressly provided. 

20 DR. BURDETTE: If he acts as Governor one 

21 minute the Senate shall fill the vacancy. 



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1 THE CMIRMA.N: There is an express provision 

2 the office is not vacant if he acts as Governor. 

3 DR. BURDETTE: That is inconsistent. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think it is. This 

5 refers to a vacancy. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: If, for example, the President 

7 of the Senate died at a time vjhen he was -~ you see 

8 under our concept we did not, as Mrs. Freedlander 

9 said, provide for the substitution of a vacancy in the 

10 office of Lieutenant Governor on the theory that the 

11 residual power was alv/ays in the Senate to select a 

12 President of the Senate. So if the President of the 

13 Senate became vacant at a time when it was necessary 

14 for hira to becom.e either .acting Governor or Governor 

15 the Senate would convene to select a President of the 

16 Senate. 

17 DR. BURDETTE: I see. Acting Governor 

18 lasts hov7 long? 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: Not more than six months, 

20 THE CHAIR>^N: Any further question? 

21 The provision, Dr. Burdette, as to the President of 



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the Senate continuing as President of the Senate even 
while acting as Governor is in paragraph (d) immediately 
following, 

DR. BURDETTE: This language says if the 
President of the Senate succeeds or is to serve as 
acting Governor, the Senate shall fill the vacancy. 

THE CRMRMAN: It doesn't say that. It 
says if a vacancy occurs in the office. The office 
isn't vacant unless the President of the Senate has 
succeeded to the office of Governor. 

JUDGE ADKINS: This does not refer, for 
example, to the situation of the election of a 
Senate pro :tem when the President of the Senate is in 
being and is simply serving as acting Governor. It 
does refer to the situation where the office becomes 
vacant either by resignation or by death or any other 
disability. 

DR. BURDETTE: I guess I am dense but I 
don't see why you don't strike the words to serve as 
acting Governor. 

MR. DELLA: Section (d) clarifies it pretty 



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good. 

DR. BURDETTE: But on the other hand Section 
(d) is just some contrary language or to serve as acting 
Governor . 

JUDGE /D-^INS: Let us assume that the 
Governor and the Lieutenant Governor and the President 
of the Senate are all three killed in an automobile 
accident. The President of the Senate ex officio 
would under the terms of this article of succession, 
succeeds to the office of Governor. There is, hov7evcr, 
no president of the Senate. Therefore, the Senate 
convenes for the purpose of electing a President of 
the Senate v;ho v;ould then succeed to the office of 
Governor. The same thing V70uld apply if the Governor 
became disabled, and there were no Lieutenant Governor 
and no President of the Senate. 

DR. BUPxDETTE: V/ell, in that case, I see. 
All right. 

THE CHAIRI'IAN: You persuaded me, however, 
that your original point was correctly taken because 
the last part of this sentence says the Senate shall 



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1 convene to fill the vacancy and In the case of the 

2 President of the Senate acting as Governor, there is 

3 no vacancy. What you mean is that they select a 

4 President pro tiem. 

5 JUDGE ADKINS: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, 

6 I don't agree V7ith that. There will be a, there could 

7 be a vacancy in the presidency of the Senate if the 

8 President of the Senate, John Jones, died at a time when 

9 the President of the Senate ex officio was to succeed 

10 as acting Governor because of the disability of the 

11 Governor, there would be a vacancy in the office of the 

12 President of the Senate. 

13 THE CHAIRJ'IAN: Why? 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: Because he is dead. There 

15 is nobody there. 

16 GOVERNOR LANE: All three in the same 

17 automobile. 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: Or an airplane. 

19 DR. BURDETTE: At the time when the President 

20 of the Senate succeeds to serve the Governor, the Senate 

21 shall convene and so on. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that this end of 

2 the table vjasn't paying close attention, Dr. Burdette, 

3 and V7e can't hear you. 

4 DR. BURDETTE: If a vacancy exists in the 

5 office of the President of the Senate at the time \7hen 

6 the President of the Senate is succeeded, then the 

7 sentence continues . 

8 ■ MR. SAYRE: VJhat are you trying to say? 

9 MRo SCANLAN: He is substituting at the 

10 time uhen for the word when. 

11 DR. BUPvDETTE: I don't want the v7ord occurs 

12 because the v7ord occurs says the vacancy, says it comes 

13 about by the President of the Senate taking this acting 

14 job and Judge Adkins says, if the fellov? isn't at hand 

15 to take the job --- 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: If he will propose that 

17 precisely, we might accept it. 

18 DRo BURDETTE: I will try to word it this 

19 vjay. If a vacancy, strike the v7ord occurs and say 

20 exists in the office of the President of the Senate, 

21 and instead of saying when, or just before that, at the 



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time V7hen and then you have it as I understand it. 

TH?: CliAII-lMAN: Dr. Burdette, if you change 

3 occurs to exist, do you need the phrase at the time? 
4: MR. CL^GETT: Then you have yourself in a 

5 box there. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: V/e would accept the altera- 

7 tion of the word, the substitution of the v/ord exists 

8 for the vjord occurs . 

9 DR. BURDETTE: That's better. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: V7e do not feel at the time 

11 v;hen is anything more than redundant. 

12 ' DR. BURDETTE: You are probably right. 

13 THE CHAIRM^iN: Any objection to the change? 

14 Mr. Miller. 

15 MR. MILLER: I don't want to keep picking 

16 at little points but it occurs to me that this is a 

17 constitution that can't be altered if, as Judge Adkins 

18 says, if all three of our top people get killed at one 

19 time, it might be very cumbersome to make it a constitu- 

20 tional requirement that the Senate should convene. 

21 Now normally I would think the Senate v/ould provide 



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1 while in regular session that if something happened, or 

2 they could do this, that if something happened they 

3 ^vould have a senior member would be ex offi.cio acting 
^ as President of the Senate and then there v7ould be 

5 somebody there instead of waiting tv7o or three days 
in time of chaos to get a Senate together to have it 

7 adopted. This is only likely to happen in time of 

8 extreme emergency, that it shouldn't be a prerequisite 
5 for the Senate to meet if they already had arranged for 

10 what they want to happen. 

11 THE CE^Il^i-^N: Judge Adkins. 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: ' I suppose we could carry 
12 this down to any ni.imber of alternates i.n the line of 
I'i succession as they do in the Federal Governm.ent , even 

15 6o\-m to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare 

16 Our thought is there are mischanics here and this is 

17 unlikely and V7a felt that this v/as the point at v^hich 
IS V7e could stop, the President of the Senate, If we 

19 should go beyond that, if there is no President of the 
Senate, we can go to the Speaker of the House. 



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1 Senate in normal session could very v/ell say that if 

2 the President of the Senate isn't there, the majority 

3 leader or so on vjill serve pro tern l as President of 

4 the Senate. 

5 THE CHAIR14/VN: Mr. Miller, may I interrupt? 

6 If the rules of the Senate provide that in the absence 

7 or in the event of the death or inability to act of 

8 the President of the Senate, that the President pro 

9 tern should be the President of the Senate, vould then 

10 not that carry into effect your suggestion V7ithout any 

11 additional language here? 

12 MR. MILLER: Except you have got to say 

13 you have to have the Senate convene. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Well, it depends on how 

15 the rule is phrased. Did you follow me, Judge Adkins? 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: If I understood you, maybe 

17 I don't understand Ted Miller's point. What I thought 

18 he meant V7as there was nobody to convene the body or 

19 kind of take the leadership of the body once it V7as 

20 convened. 

21 MRo MILLER: I am only concerned with an 



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order to make this acting President of the Senate. 
They v;ould have to convene the Senate and do it all 



over again. 



JUDGE ADKINS: I think we V70uld not V7ant 



to see a chain of succession to the Governorship belov? 

the President, the duly elected President of the 

Senate. V7e would be prepared, the CoiPiiiiit tee at least 

would be prepared to accept V7hatever chaos resulted 

during the short period of time it took the Senate 

to convene for the purpose of electing a presiding officer 

MR. MILLER: Well, if we V7ere under atomic 
attack or something, it might be vjeeks before you 
could get a Senate together and if they arranged for 
it aheadpf time, I see no objection. Of course, they 
V70uld have to convene the Senate if there was nobody to 
take it but V7hy couldn't they arrange that in advance? 

THE CHAIRMAN: But Judge Adkins and Mr. 
Miller, my point V7as, and I perhaps didn't make it too 
clearly, if the rules of the Senate provided that in 
the e/ent of the President of the Senate, the President 
pro tern should be the President, I take it there v7ould 



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1 then be no vacancy in the office of President of the 

2 Senate. 

3 JUDGE AD KINS 2 I think that is correct. 
^ THE CHAIRMAN; And under this provision 

5 then exactly \7hat Mr. Miller is suggesting would come 

6 about . 

V JUDGE ADKINS: I do note the rules so 

8 provide. 

9 THE CHAIRMN: But they could? 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: If they did that would 

H answer the problem. 

12 MR, MILLER: That is all I am concerned 

13 with, I don't V7ant to make anything happen. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it the Senate could 

15 in effect extend the succession indefinitely by providing 

16 for succession to the office of President of the 
IV Senate? 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: Automatically. 

19 MR, MILLER: Then they wouldn't have to 

20 have a special session to do that. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Any further questions 



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on this section? Judge Adkins . 

JUDGE ADKINS 2 Section (d) , we have added 
a clause at the end of the last sentence of the 
section, the full sentence reading, when the President 
of the Senate serves as acting Governor he shall 
continue to be President of the Senate, but during his 
service as acting Governor his duties as presiding 
officer shall be performed by such persons as the Senate 
shall select. That was added. 

THE CHAIPvMi\N: Any questions? 

Judge adkins : it indicates a president 
pro tern . is constitutional. 

THE CHA IR.HA N : S ec t ion (e ) . 

JUDGE ADKINS: Section (e) is a relatively 
new section reading as follows. The Supreme Court 
shall have exclusive jurisdiction. 

THE CHAIIIM^N: Pick it up from Page 4, 
pov7ers thereof. 

Any questions? Section 9. 

JU13GE ADKINS s Section 9, I think the 
Corranission has .lOt heretofore seen. With your permission, 



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1 I will read it . 

2 The Governor shall be responsible for the 

3 faithful execution of the laws. 

"^ MR. MARTINEAU: I have one comment. 

5 JUDGE ADKINS: This is one I thought would 

6 get by v;ithout comment. 

^ MR. MARTINEAU: The reason I suggest that 

8 is probably out of retaliation. The Commission amended 

9 one section of the judiciary article where V7e referred 
10 to laws by putting in by this Constitution or by law and 
•^■•^ I wonder if it shouldn*t also say here faithful 

12 execution of the Constitution in the lav7s . 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: I would say no, because it 
1^ seems to me the Constitution itself executes it. 

15 MR. MARTINEAU: That is what you said. 

IS That V7as exactly my point on which I lost. I am not 

17 making a m.otion. 

18 THE CRAIR1I/\N: Any further question or 
1^ comment concerning 9(a) . Section (b) . 

JUDGE ADKINS: The Governor may at any time 



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21 require information, in V7riting or otherwise, from officers 



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1 of any administrative department, office, or agency 

2 upon any subject relating to their respective offices. 

3 THE CH/\IRR4N: Any questions? Mr. Martineau. 

4 MR, MARTINEAU: Administrative men executed? 

5 JUDGE ADKINS: No. Well, Mr. Power points 

6 out to me that V7e use the term administrative department 

7 in Section 11. Perhaps the reason it is used here. 

8 I have no objection if it is administrative and executive 

9 .department. The obvious 5.ntent are those departments 

10 which carry out the policies of the state. 

11 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Excuse me, you say 

12 executive and administrative below. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: I V70uld have no objection to 

14 making it executD.ve and administrative here. 

15 MR. MILLER: VJhy don't you strike out 

16 administrative. 

17 MR. MARTINEAU: Just be consistent. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Since \?c are talking throughout 

19 about executive department v;ouldn't it be preferable 

20 to use that term. 

21 JWGE ADKINS: Striking out the word 



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1 aclministrative letting it read any department, office 

2 or agency. 

3 THE CEMRMAN: That would embrace then 
^ any judicial department, for instance, or the 

5 legislative department? 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 

V THE C}LA>IRl-iAN: Any objection to striking 

8 the word administrative? The effect of this V70uld be 

9 to give the Governor power to require information in 

10 writing or otherwise from members of the judicial 

11 department, members of the legislative department and 

12 members of the executive department. 

13 MR. BROOKS: Those are branches, I would 

14 think. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: I would object to that. 

16 It carries the implication that the Governor could 

17 request from the Judge of this state the basis on vjhich 
IS he reached a decision in a particular case and I v;ould 

19 prefer it pertain only to the executive or administrative 

20 department. VJhat the Legislature does and what the 

21 judicial does is none of the Governor's business unless 



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1 they want to tell him, 

2 THE CHAIRM^.N: I would assume if the 

3 Governor wanted to find out the basis for a Judge's 

4 decision, he would read his opinion. 

5 MR, SCANLAN: Yes, but this language can 
5 be interpreted that the Governor V70uld have the power 

7 to inquire further. 

8 MR. MARTINITAU: Could this be cleared up 

9 by having it read relating to the operation of their 

10 respective offices which is v;hat I think you probably 

11 mean. I think there is a reason for requiring this 

12 because the executive has the responsibility for making 

13 up the budget of these departments. It seems to me 

14 the Governor has every right to say you are asking 

15 me for ten clerks in this office. Why do you need 
15 ten clerks? 

17 MR, SCANLAN: Other provis5-ons deal with 

18 ho;; the budget and Legislature are transmitted to the 

19 Governor, Doesn't the intention of the Committee as 

20 it is originally drafted, leaving aside the language 

21 that appears here, v/asn't the intention of the ComiP.ittee 



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1 to really give the power to the Governor to require 

2 anybody and for the Governor to state V7hether it be 

3 the judicial or Legislature to furnish this information. 
^ JUDGE ADKINS: No, to give the Governor the 

5 right to acquire information from any administrative 

6 or executive department of the state. Mr. Povzer just 

7 pointed something out to me which I hadn't realized. 

Q If you strike out the v7ord administrati-ve , it could give 

5 the Governor the right to ask for advisory opinions from 
the Supreme Court v;hich I v;ould at least not favor. 

^^ So I would suggest that V7e go back to the proposal 

^" executive and administration departm.ent, office or 

1«5 agency. 

1'*^ THE CR4IRMN: 1 am not sure I follow you 

1-5 when you say go back to. You are talking about Section 

IS 9(b) and the only v7ord used there is administrative. 
IV JUDGE ADKINS: That we add the word executive 

IS before administrative. 

19 THE CHAIPvt^iAN: And your present suggestion is 

20 to do V7hat. 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: Make it read executive, 



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administrative or. 

2 THE CliAIRl^AN: And, or. 

3 JUDGE ADKINS: I would make it say and. 

4: TliE CHAIRMAN: What about the administrator 

5 of the courts? 

6 JUDGE ADKIM3 : You are asking me whether 

7 that is included in here or which is to give him the 

8 authority. 

9 THE CHAIRKiAN: Both. I might say it would 

10 be doubtful if it v.'ould be an adm.inis trative department. 

11 I v7ould assume there would be no reason V7hy the 

12 Governor could not ask for ■ information from the 

13 administrative office of the court but I don't know. 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: I must admit I don't see the 

15 distinction between the and and the or but if it is 

16 acceptable to the Commission, it is to me. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: The suggestion is that 

18 paragraph (b) be amended by inserting at the top of 

19 Page 5 the word executive or before the word administra- 

20 tive. Any objection? 

21 MR. MILLER: Make the word department plural, 



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1 departments. 

2 THE CE4IRMAN: If you have the word and at 

3 the end of Page 4 you would want department singular. 

4 Is there any objection to inserting the vjords executive 

5 or -- 

6 MR. SAYRE: Mr. Chairman, V7e are talking 

7 about the executive department and I think that is 

8 confusing. 

9 TRE CliAIllMr\N: Judge Adkins , you want to 

10 comment? 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: I have no comment. I think 

12 the execut5-ve or administrative, I think is perfectly 

13 clear and reasonable. 

l^ THE CHAIRMAN: You object or V7ant to make 

15 a motion, Mr. Sayre? 

16 m. SAYRE: I don't think this is a 

17 satisfactory ansv.'er . Maybe more thought ought to be 

18 given to it. Anything in v;hich you have the Governor's 

19 responsibility in the budget concerns something there 

20 that he might V7ant to ask including the judiciary and 

21 if so, how you can make it flexible enough where you can 



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1 go outside. Say you have a regulatory commission 

2 that is not any^^here, 

3 THE CHAIRl-lAN: All state agencies are in 
^ one of the three major departments of the state. 

5 MR. SAYPvE: You could have something 

6 responsible to the Legislature and administered by 

7 the executive department. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: V7ell, I would take it 
5 then that it would be an administrative office? 

10 MR. SAYRE: . That is why I questioned the 

H need for inserting executive v;hen V7e are talking about 

12 the execut3.ve department of V7hich the governor is the 

13 head. 

14 THE CFiALRMAN: V/ell, I don't think we get any 

15 where just debating. Let's make a motion and make 

16 a decision. You v?ant to move? 

17 MR. SAYRE: I am not prepared. 

18 THE CEMRMAN: Well, I take it that what 

19 you were suggesting is that we not amend the existing 

20 language in (b) . 

21 MR, SAYRE: I move we leave it as it is. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN : Is there a second? 

2 MR. MITCHELL: Second. 

3 DR. BURDETTE: V7hat is the motion? 

^ THE CR^IRMAN: The Committee has suggested 

5 that Paragraph (b) be amended by adding the words 

6 executive or before the v7ord administrative at the top 

7 of Page 5. The motion is to leave the section as it 

8 appears on Pages 4 and 5. Dr. Burdette. 

9 DR. BURDETTE: I think I have an objection 

10 to this and I would like to bring it to your considera- 

11 tion. I should think that the Governor may properly 

12 ask from the heads of departments . I think it is very 

13 dubious, for instance, whether he should write to me as 
14: an officer of the University of Maryland and not to the 

15 president of the University of Maryland and require 

16 me to answer. This applies throughout the state. Why? 
IV I think it very dubious for the Governor to pick out 

IB anybody, the university m.ay be a poor example, but take 

19 the State Department of Health and take the 15th man and 

20 advise him I vzant everything. This is a constitutionally 

21 required arrangement that officers report directly to 



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1 the Governor instead of through the department heads 

2 and I am dubious of it. 

3 THE Cft\IRMAN: I V70uldn't go quite that far 

4 that they report directly to him, it means he can bypass 

5 the head of the department or the intermediate head 

6 if he chooses to do so. 

7 DR.BURDETTS: But should we make this a 

8 constitutional provision in the state? 

9 THE CHAIPvMAN: Are you asking me? I 

10 would, yes. Judge Adkins . 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: We thought so. It is in 

12 most constitutions. It is in the model constitution 

13 and our committee felt that it V7as a constitutional 

14 dimension and hence V7e have so recommended it. 

15 THE CHiMRMAN: Dr. Jenkins. 

16 DR. JENKINS: As administrative officer, I 

17 certainly agree and am sympathetic to Dr. Burdette 

18 but I do think the Governor must have the right to 

19 address inquiries to anyone. 

20 THE CHAIRM:\N: Any further discussion? 

21 DR. JENKINS: The matter of courtesy, the 



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Governor v7ould not do thi-S. 

DR. BURDETTE; I have one on my desk now from 
the Governor and didn't answer it and is addressed to 
state department heads of agencies. I am not one so 
I did not answer it. 

DR. BARD: You m5-ght be interested in the 
way the Michigan Constitution states it. The Governor 
shall have the power and be his duty to inquire upon 
the condition and administration of any public office 
and the acts of any public officer, it goes on. 

THE CMAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 
Ready for the question? 

DR. BURDETTE: That is much better. 

THE CEA-IRM4N: The question arises on the 
motion to leave Section 9(b) as it presently appears 
on Pa,Q:e3 4 and 5 v7ithout the addition of the words 



1'7. 


executive or before administrative department. Ready 


18 


for the question? All 3-n favor of the n>otion, signify 


19 


by saying aye. Contrary, no. The noes have it. Any 


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further questions with respect to 9(b)? Section 11. 


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JUDGE ADKINS: Section 11(a) is a new 




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1 section wh5.ch the Commission has not yet heretofore 

2 seen. With your permission, I will read it. All 

3 executive and administrative offices, agencies and 

4- instrumentalities of state government and their respec- 

5 tive functions, powers and duties, shall be allocated 

6 by lav7 among and v/ithin principal departm.ents . Regulatory 

7 and quasi-judicial agencies may, but need not, be allocatec 

8 by lav; among and within principal department. The head 

9 of each principal departm.ent shall be either a s5.ngle 

10 executive or a board or commission. When a board or 

11 conraission is at the b-aad of a principal department, 

12 chief administrative officers may be provided for it 

13 by law. '• 

14 I would like to read the rest of this, 

15 Mr. Chairman. 

16 (b) The General Assembly shall by lav7 

17 prescribe the fvinctions, powers and duties of the 

18 principal departments and of all other agencies of the 

19 State and may from time to time reallocate offices, 

20 agencies and instrumentalities among the principal 

21 departments, may increase, modify, dimD.nish or change 



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). their functions, pov^ers and duties and may assign new 

2 functions, pov7ers and duties to them; but the governor 

3 may make such changes in the allocation of such functions, 
4: powers and duties as he considers necessary for 

5 efficient administration. Those changes v;hich affect 

6 existing lav7 shall be set forth in executive orders 

7 which shall be submitted to the General Assem.bly. The 

8 General Assembly shall have sixty days of a regular 

9 session to consider these executive orders and, if 

10 specifically approved or not specifically disapproved or 

11 modified, they shall have the force of law at a date 

12 thereafter to be designated by the governor. 

13 I might say by way of explanation that our 

14 concept here is to grant substantial executive power 

15 of reorganization vjithin the state in terms of the 

16 reassignment of pov7ers and duties V7ithin departments. 

17 It is not our concept that the Governor shall have the 

18 power to create or augment nev7 provision or new plans 

19 v7ithout executive, v/ithout legislative approval. V7e 

20 feel that the proper, that it is impossible in the 

21 Constitution to try to specify the povrer , the Department 



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^ into which the state, V7hich the state shall be organized 

2 As you knov7, that matter is now under study by a 

3 Commission appointed by Governor Tav/es . We have tried 
^ to get such help as V7e could from that Commission in 

5 terms of drafting this reorganization power. One of 

6 the principal matters that V7e debated was whether or 

7 not we should, as many Constitutions do, and as indeed 

8 the n>Ddel proposes, recommend a limitation as to the 

9 number of principal departments . V7e rejected that 

10 idea on the theory that any number vjould be more or 

11 less arbitrary and that it was not really essential. 

12 We have provided that the regulatory boards v;hich fall 

13 into somewhat 'of a separate category should not 

14 necessarily be assig-aed v^ithin a principal department. 

15 This is preliminary to, it may turn out to be a somewhat 

16 more controversial problem occurring in our next session 

17 Perhaps we should limit ourselves to a discussion of 

18 these tv70 sections. 

19 THE cmiRMAN: Judge Adkins, I take it 

20 that by the use of the term executive and administrative 

21 offices, agencies and instrumentalities, it is intended 



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1 that these sections vTOuld apply to the judicial 

2 department and administrative departments such as 

3 administrative offices of the courts? 

^ JUDGE ADKINS: No, sir, V7e did not have 

5 that in mind. Our concept here was this V7as the 

6 executive and administrative offices of the executive 
V branch of the government. 

8 THE CRMRmN: .1 don't quarrel V7ith the 

9 idea it should. As a matter of fact, they do nov?. 
The administrative office of the court is subject to the 

^1 control of the Legislature. The Clerks of the Covirt are 

^2 subject to control of the Legislature and the Comptroller. 

13 X V7onder if you mean to exclude the administrative 

1^ departments of the judicial branch from the operation 

15 of this provision. 

16 JUDGE ADKIMS: We did not specifically 
IV consider the administrative officer and the clerks. 

18 My viev7, the divis5.on of the powers, the administrative 

19 office of the court v7ould be a matter for the Suprem.e 

20 chief Justice of the Supreme Bench. It should not be a 

21 matter which v;ould be subject to reorganisation by the 



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1 chief executive. In other v7ords , I can conceive of a 

2 very definite conflict if the Governor had the right 

3 to reorganize the administrative office of the court. 
^ THE C1-IAIP^M/>.M: Well, I am not expressing 
5 an opD-nion. I don't see the difficulty but is not the 
^ language here capable of that interpretation that it 
^ would be applicable to the administrative offices V7ithin 
8 the other tv^o departments of government? 
^ JUDGE ADKINS: V7ell, our thought V7as that 

it was not but I gather it must be. 
^^ THE C1IAIR14AN: Mr. Scan Ian. 

^2 MR, SCANIiiN: I notice it is late in the 

12 day to be suggesting changes in the text but to offset 

1'^ the problem, the Chairman raised to make it perfectly 

15 clear the power is limited to agencies within the 

15 executD.ve branch, you could strike the words executive 
17 and administrative appearing in the first line of (a) 

16 and then add the phrase V7ithln the executive branch 
1^ to follow the phrase state government. The section 
20 v7ould then read all offices, agencies and ins trum.entalitief 
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1 then follow with the rest. Would that capture your 

2 objection, your point, Mr, Chairman? 

3 THE CMIRMAN? It would clarify it. I am 

4 not sure as to the question of policy involved. What 

5 is the position of the Committee? 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: I think that V7ould answer 

7 the policy we v;ere attempting to implement. V7e did 

8 not envision that the Governor under his power of 

-9 reorganization under paragraph (b) or under the division 

10 in the principal departments under paragraph (a), v?ould 

11 have the right to interfere with either the legislative 

12 branch or the judicial branch to that extent the 

13 language would state what we tried to state. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Would not be able to change, 

15 for instance, the depth of legislative reference. 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: No, since this is a 

17 legislative function. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond. 

19 MR. BOND: I v7ould disagree V7ith Judge Adkins 

20 because I bring to the Commission the Public Service 

21 Coicaission and the State Racing Commission. The limited 



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1 language proposed by Mr. Scanlan the Governor would 

2 have no control over that. 

3 JUDGE ADKINS: That is part of the executive 
^ department. 

5 MR. BOND; Are they? 

6 MR. CL/iGETT: They are all appointed by the 
V Governor. 

8 Mil. MILLER: How about V/orkraen's Compensation? 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: I v70uld take it everything 
10 would be included except the officers' responsibility 
H to the judicial branch and the legislative branch and 

12 those officers responsible' to that V7hich would include 

13 the department of legislative reference and the adminis- 
1^ trative officer of the court. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: Precisely. 

16 MR. BOND: I agree as a matter of policy. 

17 THE CMIRM^N: You could remove any doubt 

18 V7ith a little more phraseology and say instead of 

19 included v;ithin the executive branch say other than 

20 those included in the executive and judicial branch. 

21 JUDGE ADKINS^ I find that not acceptable. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I have some difficulty with 

2 it because I think the status of some regulatory 

3 agencies is perhaps not clearly not V7ithin the legisla- 

4 tive branch. The Public Service Commission is exercising 

5 a legislative function. Tax courts are another 

6 illustration. 

7 MR., M/^vRTINEAU: Maybe you would vyant to 

8 make it, make your phrase difficult to say not solely 

9 within. 

10 THE CHAIRmN: Could perhaps. 

11 MR. MARTItJEAU: I think that is the idea 

12 if I am not mistaken. 

13 ^El.BOND: I think V7e are all saying the 

14 same thing. 

15 THE CHrURllAN: Can we get the question of 

16 principle clear and then resolve the language? Does 

17 anybody dispute the principle advocated by the Committee 
16 that the reorganization power here conferred upon the 

19 Governor is not intended to be applicable to the 

20 legislative judicial departments. Do you disagree w5ih 

21 that principle? 



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^ MR. SAYRE: No, I was thinking of a positive 

^ rephrasing. 

3 THE CM\IRMAN: Let's not get the language 

but the principle first. 

5 MR. SAYRE: Which is on the principle. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 

'^ MR. SAYRE: All functions and duties that 

^ fall within the responsibility of the executive depart- 

^ ment. 
^^ MR. BOND: No, no. 

•^•^ THE CHAIRMAN: It doesn't help rae. It 

may help some of tte others. I v/as going to suggest 
"^^ that V7e, if v-ye agreed on the questbn of principle that 
^^ V7e leave to the Committee and its reporter the matter 
^^ of v7orking out the best phraseology to accomplish that. 
1^ MRS. BOTHE: I second it. 

1'^ DR. BARD: So moved. 

^Q THE CH.\IR1'LAN: All right, any further 

■'• question or comment v/ith respect to Section (a)? 

DR. JENKINS: I have a comment. The last 
sentence in (a) is superfluous. V/hat does this add? 



12 



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Isn't this implicit? 

JUDGE ADKINS: We thought it was, I won't 
say essential. We certainly thought it was helpful in 
view of the reference later to the poxv^er of the 
Governor to appoint chief administrative officers in 
addition to the power to appoint chief executive 
officers. 

DR. JENKINS: I. don't feel strongly about 
it. It seems to me to be unnecessary. 

JUDGE ADKINS: We would prefer to see 
the language left in, in viev7 of the later impact. 

DR. BURDETTE: ' One I don't understand is 
does this mean, for instance, that some means of choosing 
this officer could be set up by law so that the Governor 
could not reorganize? What doss it mean? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Well, may I use' a concrete 
example? It means, for example, that if the Racing 
Commission is headed by a board of three, as I think 
it currently is, that the Legislature could provide 
that V7hile -- 

MRc CLAGETT: There are five. 



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JUDGE ADKINS: That the Legislature could 
provide that an executive secretary, for example, of 
the Racing Commission, v7ould be appointed \7ho would 
be the chief administrator as opposed to the chief 
policy maker of the board and V70uld later provide that 
the Governor shall have the power to hire and fire the 
chief administrative officers thus set up. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question on 
Section (a)? Any question on (b) ? If not, V7e move 
forward to Section 12, on page 8. 

JbT)GE ADKINS: The Governor shall appoint 
all single executives serving as heads of principal 
departments and all chief administrative officers 
serving under boards or commissions which head principal 
departments, except presidents of i/astitutions of 
higher education. These appointees shall have such 
professional qualifications as may be prescribed by law 
and shall serve at the pleasure of the Governor. 

(b) The governor shall appoint the members 
of all boards or cornniissions which serve as heads of 
principal departments. The term of office of such 



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1 members shall be prescribed by lav7 so that the Governor, 

2 upon taking office following his election, shall be 

3 able to appoint at least one-half of the members of 

4 the board or commission. Such members may be removed 

5 as prescribed by law. 

6 (c) Presidents of institutions of higher 

7 education, mem.bers of regulatory and quasi-judicial 

8 agencies, and all other officers in the administrative 

9 service of the State, shall be appointed and may be 

10 removed as prescribed by law. 

11 I think unquestionably some comment 

12 on this comment might be in order. , 

13 THE CRA^IRMN: Go right ahead. 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: V7e have felt quite strongly 

15 and I say v/e , I think finally this recomjiiendation was 

16 unanimous although we in our thinking V7andered somevjhat 

17 all over the lot, that if we V7ere to modernize the 

18 state so it V7as 5-n a position to meet the expanding 

19 demands of our economy that the Governor had to be 

20 vested V7ith sufficient power to operate as an effective 

21 and strong chief executive. This was as v/e have pointed 



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1 out in our report, not a novel conclusion of ours. It 

2 is generally, I think, the accepted philosophy of 

3 students of the field of state governments nov7. There 
^ is prior sanction in the Soboloff Report v^hich made 

5 exhaustive studies approaching two years on the adminis- 

6 trative structure of the state. It has been commented 

7 on at least in one department V7hich V7e have quoted in 

8 our report by outside extremely competent management 

9 consultants v7ho have recommended that such a provision 
10 should be available and in line with what he at least 
H considers to be the best modern administration V7e have 
■^^ felt that the Governor should be the responsible officer 
13 for the appointment and discharge of the pDple v7ho are 
1"^ really the policy making people in the state. V7e have 

15 had considerable difficulty V7ith the question of 

16 administrative boards and policy making boards. 

17 Maryland, for many years, as all of you knov7, has 

IB adopted a policy of attempting to insulate the executive 

19 power from carrying out certain of these functions. 

20 There seems to have been, if I read it right, alm.ost a 

21 fear of executive domination. To that extent many of 



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1 the boards now have terms which overlap the period 

2 of any single gubernatorial election. So it is 

3 impossible in most situations for a Governor to 

4 secure control of many of the agencies of the state 

5 except well into his second term. This means, as V7e 

6 see it, that although a Governor is charged by his 

7 general position with the responsibility of managing 

8 the affairs of the state, in many instances he cannot do 

9 so until well into his second term because he cannot 

10 put into office people who are sympathetic with him 

11 in their policies. V7e have no, we are conscious of the 

12 charge of politics as has been said earlier, the political 

13 animal must operate politically. V7e have therefore 

14 proposed not the complete abolicnion . 

15 of all policy boards as we in fact considered, but have 

16 recommended S3.mply that all boards should at least 

17 rotate their membership so that a governor when he 

18 takes office, has a 50 per cent of the membership of 

19 all boards subject to his appointment. There is a 

20 break here by virtue of the fact of having a carry-over 

21 of 50 per cent of experienced personnel. More than that 



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1 we have felt the chief policy individuals, that is 

2 the chief executives of the heads of the various 

3 departments and the chief executive officer should be 

4 subject to the will of the Governor. I have so far 

5 talked for four m3.nutes v7ithout mentioning vjhat is 

6 perhaps the most controversial subject inherent in this 

7 proposal and I suppose I can't get by without mentioning 

8 it and that is the Superintendent of Schools. Under 

9 this proposal, I think it V70uld be safe to say that the 

10 Superintendent of Schools V70uld be subject to the 

11 executive will. This matter gave us great concern. 

12 I think one is always reluctant, certainly I have learned 

13 to be reluctant to tamper V7ith anything relating to 

14 the Public School System. Vie did feel, however, and 

15 I must say my own personal position is buttressed 

16 soDiewhat by the recommendation of the Finance Coraaittee, 

17 that the m-.andated funds, the budget of the School 

18 System should basically be inviolate, that a departm.snt 

19 V7hich spends as substantially a part of the income of 

20 the state as does the School system should be in some 

21 V7ay responsive to the executive will. This is in no 



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1 sense a recommendation for politics in the School 

2 System, It is simply an attempt to coordinate and 

3 make it possible to coordinate the functions of the most 

4 important single function of the state government 

5 V7ith the remaining elements of the state government 

6 through the pov7er of the chief executive to appoint the 

7 head of the department. I am confident there will be 

8 dissent from this position. 

9 THE CMIRmN: Any discussion? V7ait just 

10 a second. I shouldn't have said discussion. Are there 

11 any questions first? 

12 DR. BARD: I do have a question. 

13 THE CKAIRmN: Mrs. Bothe . 

14 MRS. BOTHE: Maybe v^e have the same 

15 question. You mentioned the Superintendent of School 

16 because that, I gather, is the hottest office that might 

17 be affected but -- 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: I have some reason to think 

19 that. 

20 MRS. BOTHE: And I will speak to that perhaps 

21 later but during the questioning, how many offices would 



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actually be affected. I see you have got an appendix 
containing a list of vjhat I assume to be all of the 
offices you could think that V70uld come under this 
revised provision and it is a little difficult on 
taking a hasty glance at it to know just hov7 V7idespread 
on an immediate practical basis the change vjould be. 
For instance, I don't believe you indicate, maybe you 
do, the length of term.s of the various boards nov7. 

JUDGE ADKINS: Me do not. It is a little 
difficult to ansv7er your question because of the fact 
that I don't knov7 how many principal departments the 
ultimate reorgani^.ation statute will result iii. That 
is a matter, as I said earlier, that is nov; under study 
The intent of this is to give the Governor the right 
to appoint and to discharge at V7ill the heads of the 
principal departments. How many of those principal 
departments there V7ill be, I can't answer. It is 
not our 3.ntent that hs should be able to go below the 
chief executive officer of each of the principal 
departments. Now I would guess unquestionably there 
V70uld be perhaps health, perhaps law enforcement, and 



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1 you can just go on and group the state functions in any 

2 way you V7ant to. That would be done pursuant to the 

3 legislative will, pursuant to Section 11. Once those 
^ principal departments were established, the Governor 

5 \%ould then have the right to appoint and discharge the 

6 heads of those principal offices. 

V MRS. BOTEE: For instance, the Board of 

8 Regents at the University of Maryland. 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: That V70uld not be covered 
10 here. 

H MRS.BOTHE: You have exempted the press. 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: ' No, we have provided the 

13 term of boards can be as the Legislature can provide, 
I'i provided that only half of them shall be available 

15 during his administration. They v7ould serve a term. 

16 They v7ould not be subject to being fired at will. 

1'7 They would all be subject to being appointed, serving 

IS their full term. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: In the case of Regents, the 

governor presently appoints. 



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21 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 



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MRS. BOTHE: My question is directed to 
the question of tenure of appointment and the provision 
that upon ascending office the new Governor V70uld have 
the right to replace at least 50 per cent of existing 
policy boards . 

JUDGE ADKINS: I don't think that is the 
intent. The intent is that the phasing of appointments, 
which now can be staggered over a period of six years, 
would be staggered in such a V7ay that at least 50 per 
cent of the board v70uld be up for appointment every 
four years . 

THE CHAIRMAN: During every period of four 
years . 

JUDGE ADKINS: During every period of 
four years . 

MRS. BOTHE: You say here taking office 
upon his election. 

JUDGE ADKINS: This again v7ould relate to 
the provisions for the appointment. It is not our 
intention that every time a new Governor goes in, he 
automatically fires half and appoints half. The 



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1 statutory legislation relating to the boards v7ould be 

2 so drawn that the terms of half of the members of the 

3 board V7ould expire coincident V7ith the nev? Governor 

4 taking office. It may be a distinction without a 

5 difference, 

6 THE CHAIRKAN: Mr. Scanlan. 

7 MR. SCANLAN; That was my question, Dale. 

8 Do you intend that immediately upon taking office, 

9 the appointments v7ould be so prescribed by law that 

10 at once he could, that the 50 per cent would go out 

11 or is it your intention during his first term after 

12 taking office he v;ould be in position to replace 50 

13 per cent? 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: The terms of the boards 

15 V70uld be coincident V7ith the gubernatorial term, so 

16 coinci.dent with the demise of the old chief executive, 

17 at least half of the members of the board would go so 

18 a new Governor taking office V70uld have at ].east 50 

19 per cent of his own appointees to each of the major 
20- policy making boards. 

21 THE CHAIR^i!^N: Mr. Martineau. 



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1 MR. M:\RTINEAU: I don't quite understand 

2 why since you are permitting the Governor to, I think, 

3 obtain control over all of the boards or commissions, 

4 vzhy you also have to give the Governor the pov7er to 

5 appoint a chief administrative officer operating under 

6 these boards and comniss ions . It seems to me that 

7 the control is enough and that like take, for example, 

8 the executive secretary of the State Racing Commission. 

9 I frankly can't understand why he should have to be 

10 appointed by the Governor. Ke has to vzork directly 

11 V7ith and directly under the State Racing Comm5.ssion 

12 and his functions are not policy milking functions. 

13 They are merely administrative. I think it would be 

14 much more important to have him operate closely \;ith 

15 the Commission appointed by the Governor than be somehov; 

16 able to get along with the Governor. I frankly don't 

17 like it. 

3,8 JUDGE ADKINS: The State Racing Commission 

19 is a problem, I V7ill concede. To begin vzith, I don't 

20 knov7 and I don't think we have been able to determine 

21 vrhcther it is a regulatory quasi- judicial agency or 



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1 exactly what function it has, I would assume it would 

2 be a regulatory agency. Now that being the case under 

3 Section (c) , the members of that body would be appointed 
4: as prescribed by law so that they could be appointed 

5 for a term irrespective. 

6 MR. H\RTINEAU: Take an example of something 

7 purely vjithin the executive. Maybe the State Water 

8 Resources Commission. I can't see any reason V7hy the 

9 executive secretary of that should be appointed by the 

10 Governor. 

11 THE CHAIRI'IAN: This is just the question 

12 perused now. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: Here again I would say that 
I'i I can*t be sure but I vsould guess that the head of the 

15 V/ater Resources Board would not constitute a principal 

16 department and if it were not a principal, I vTOuld 

17 im?igine, for example, it would be ground under some 

18 other department. If it vjere not a principal department 

19 the Governor V70uld not have this power. So it would 

20 not reach that far down in the executive hiarchy. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard. 



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1 DR. BARD: My question has been asked. I 

2 do want to get into the debate. 

3 THE CM<RM^N: Mr. Delia. 

4 MR. DELIA: Judge, v;ould this include in your 

5 recommendation the Workmen's Compensation Commission 

6 also? 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: The Workmen's Compensation 

8 Commission in our thinking vjould fall under paragraph 

9 (c) of the quasi-judicial agency. 

10 THE C1IAIRM\N: Any further question? 

11 MR. CLAGETT: The executive secretary of 

12 the Racing Commission reports to the Governor on the 

13 status of various funds which have been built under 

14 that Comjnission by law such as the Maryland Breed Fund, 

15 such as the Building Fund insofar as the tracks are 

16 concerned and there is a difference between the operation 

17 of that fund relating to the mile tracks as distinguished 

18 from the half mile tracks. So the Governor should 

19 have access to an appointive pov7Gr or firing power 

20 over that individual because of the responsibility with 

21 respect to those funds which carries on over and through 



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1 the tenure of the Commissioners. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond. 

3 MR. BOND: I have a further response to 

4 Mr, Martineau*s question, if I may, sir, please. It 

5 is a great oversimplification to think throughout the 

6 state the boards establish policy vjith an executive 

7 here. That is not the case. It varies tremendously , in 

8 each department and by statute throughout the entire 

9 state governm.ent. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

11 ComiTient on the section? Any motions to be made? 

12 DR, JENKINS: I V70uld like to speak to the 

13 issue of the appointment of the Superintendent of 

14 Schools . 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: V7ould you make a mrOtion so 

16 that V7e can then engage in formal debate? 

17 DR. JENKINS: My motion is at the top of 
1'8 Page 9, second line, replace the period with a comma 

19 and add the State Superintendent of Schools. 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: May I have that restated? 

21 THE CIHERM^N: Second line after the words 



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1 higher education, strike the period and add what? 

2 DR. JENKINS: State Superintendent of 

3 Schools. 

^ THE CH^.n<R4N: No and, and the State 

5 Superintendent of Schools. Did you get it, Judge 

6 Ad kins? 

V JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 

8 DR. BARD: I second that. 

9 DR. JENKINS: Also on paragraph (c) , the 
10 second line after institution of higher education, 
H put a comma and add the Superintendent of Schools. 

12 THE CHA^IRllAN: ' Paragraph (c) , after 

13 education. 

14 DR. JENKINS: Now this Commission has had 

15 several instances in which v/e have considered education 

16 as a unique and special function of government and 

IV something to be safeguarded from political influence, 

IB provided for the school fund, not the school fund, 

19 but the funds that V7e support, public education safe- 

20 guarded and V7e have considered the autonomy for the 

21 University of Maryland and in this very exception we 



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1 except presidents of institutions of higher education. 

2 It v7ould be incongruous for the Governor to appoint 

3 the president of the University of Maryland. The State 

4 Superintendent of Schools is responsible to the State 

5 Board of Education. This has vzorked very well in 

6 Maryland even during Dr. Pullen's tenure when there were 

7 plenty of instances of conflict v/ith the Governor. 

8 I think it is very essential that the Superintendent 

9 of Schools have some degree of independence and I do 

10 know that this particular issue is of great and vital 

11 interest to the people of the state who are interested 

12 in education. 

13 THE CHAIRKiAN: Dr. Bard. 

14 DR. R^RD: I V70uld like to add tv70 points 

15 to \7hat has been made. It is highly important that V7e 

16 look upon the State Board of Education in the same 

17 way as we look upon the Board of Trustees of a college 
1.8 and the superintendent would have the same relationship 

19 to the State Board and thus to elementary and secondary 

20 education as the president of a college would have to 

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1 As a matter of fact, just as it is important for us 

2 not to be svzayed by momentary requirements or something 

3 that may be an expediency for the moment, so you need 
4: a contuining of thinking in this regard and this is 

5 yet another thought. Secondly, I think the professional 

6 people in education would be highly disturbed if V7e 

7 did not look upon the flow clear to the top from the 

8 profession V7hich includes the superintendent much as 

9 those who are in the field of higher education look upon 

10 the presidency as being embraced v/ithin the profession. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond. 

12 MR, BOND: I can only apply to this that 

13 the very arguments that Dr. Jenkins used and Dr. Bard 

14: used apply to the people who are concerned V7ith welfare, 

15 mental hygiene, with health, V7ith forestry and parks, 

16 parole and corrections . You are going to give the 

17 Governor a strong cabinet or you are not. The argum.snts 

18 apply but they are overriding by the argviments that 

19 you have to let the Governor rvm the state. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: There is a very real distinction 

21 betv7een the autonomy that V7e V7ere contemplating either 



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statutory or constitutional with respect to the 
institutions of higher education as compared to the 
secondary schools and the reason, primary reason that 
comas to mind is the research and all that it carries 
with it. 



THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 



Mrs. Bothe. 



MRS. BOTHE: I am a little quizzical as 
to whether the Committee isn't sacrificing what was a 
beautiful theory to which I subscribed V7holeheartedly 
to a practice which has turned out to be very effective 
in the state. The Miscellaneous Provisions Committee, 
in its report this morning and the sections which we 
didn't have occasion to discuss make certain, or drav7S 
certain conclusions about the present means of selection 
of the Board of Education and the Superintendent of 
Education and because that system v/as apparently 
working so smoothly, our Committee felt it was unwise to 
upset the apple cart by placing those offices in the 
Constitution or in any other respect provid:.ng for 
change. I don't knov? that the principles there would 



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1 differ in any respect from a number of other Commissions 

2 or organizations. I agree with Mr. Bond that the 

3 educational system might not be one to particularly 

4 single out in this respect. But it seems to me that the 

5 Committee has proceeded on a theory v/hich might be a 

6 tremendous mass of practice and unless there is better 

7 evidence, particularly as pertains to certain agencies, 

8 I am thinking of the Board of Regents of the 

9 University of Maryland, which is appointed, there are 

10 eleven members who receive appointm.ents for seven years. 

11 Under this proposal, the terms of those members would 

12 have to be revamped so that 50 per cent of the member- 

13 ship expired every four years <, I am sure there are a 

14 number of other examples where a well functioning system, 

15 and nobody here today is questioning that the Bcq rd of 

16 Regents at the University of Maryland has been 

17 functioning well under its present tenure and method 

18 of appointment, this would be completely out the v7indow 

19 by virtue of the nev7 theory v.'hich the Committee on the 

20 Executive Department prescribes and I am sure that there 

21 are a nujnber of other exam.ples similarly. I think, for 



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instance, the Patuxent Institution, where I serve on 
the Advisor's Board. In that instance the chief execu- 
tive is selected by the Board V7hic h in turn is nominated 
for terms of five years by the Governor . This has 
functioned exceedingly V7ell. The same person has been 
the chief executive there since the inception of the 
institution. For the most part, the same persons have 
served on the board. I am wondering what kind of chaos 
is going to result in any number of state agencies if 
these provisions are literally written into the 
Constitution. 

.THE CHAIRmN: 'Mr. Martineau. 

MRo MARTINEAU: My question goes to the, 
to Dr. Jenkins. As I read this, if you take the 
School Superintendent v7ould be appointed pursuant to 
law, which means the law could provide he could be 
appointed by the Governor and I just V7onder what the 
purpose is in doing V7hat you are suggesting. 

DR. JEirKINS: Well, I think the purpose is 
very obvious. If the Constitution says he must be 
appointed by the Governor then the Legislature could 



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1 not provide othervjise. 

2 MR. KARTINEAU: That Is correct. I think 

3 you are in more trouble if you say by law, which means 
^ he is appointed by the Legislature and then you are 

5 really going to be in trouble. 

^ THE CH/MRmN: Any further discussion? 

'^ MR. POVJER: r thought I might give the 

® results of some research vze had done into the method 

^ of selecting school superintendents in other states. 
This is only a report of 45 states, the short time 

■^^ V7e V7orked on it, we missed five but the research 

•^^ indicates that 23 states the School Superintendent is 

^^ elected and in 19 states, the School Superintendant is 

^^ appointed by the Board and in 4 states presently the 

^5 School Superintendent is appoiiited by the Governor. 
IS MR. MARTINEAU: I V70uld like to ask a 

^'^ question as to those figures. 
■IS THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. 

19 MR. MARTINEAU: Is there any indication 

^^ where the School Superintendent is elected vzhether the 
School Superintendent serves under a Board? I think 



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your figures were given on the assumption there v/as a 
State Board of Education in each case. I don't know 
this is true. 

MR. POWER: In this survey, I can't ansv/er 
that question, Mr. Martineau. VJe are having the rest 
of the material prepared. 

DR. BARD: May I ask a question on the 
figures? 

THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 

DR. BARD: As for those four cases v;'here 
the Superintendent is appointed by the Governor, I 
V70uld like two answers. First V7hat are the four 
states, and secondly, is there a Board over the 
Superintendent in those four cases. Mr. Martineau's 
question V7as in regard to other cases. In these four 
cases . 

MR. POVJER: Let ine ansvjer your first 
questions. I v^ill have to look for the answer to the 
second. The four states are Alaska, Nev? Jersey, 
Tennessee, and Virginia. I v;ill look for the answer 
to the other question, Dr. Bard. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? Mr. 

2 Sayre. 

5 MR. SAYRE: I think personally this is 

^ a very hard thing to decide absolutely but if you have 

5 a Board that has at least continuity provided by half of 

6 it and this does not mean that the Governor could not 

7 reappoint members whose term does expire and if you 

8 have a, this is part of the executive department in 
^ V7hich the administration is done, it vjould seem to 

^^ me you would have more efficiency. Id)n't mean you 

^•^ sacrifice anything because of this but I think the 

^^ efficiency is important which I question sometimes being 

13 done at least under the existing system. You do have 

1^ the requirement that anyone appointed to any department 

15 under this Constitution shall have such professional 

16 qualifications as may be prescribed by law and that 

^'^ . \-ias a very considered clause meaning therefore you are 

1^ go5-ng to have someone that has to have the professional 

1^ qualifications before the Governor could appoint him. 

^^ It v?ould seem to me that this area could very V7ell 

^1 have greater encouragement through an enlightened or 



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2 impartial Governor where he sees people in the educational 

2 field wish they could move ahead farther than they can 

2 under the existing system. There is no reason V7hy 

4 the Governor couldn't take the bull by the horns and 

g do more by this type of system than under the existing 

g and I don't think that the fears that the educators 

Y often express is more than they may feel, that they 

Q V70n't have the same rapport with the Governor. I don't 

9 think that is a real fear that will develop. 

10 >^^Se BOTHE: Can I ask a question? I 

11 v7ondered how many other states, if any, gave the chief 

12 executive such complete and absolute pov;ers over the 

13 executive department. 

14 THE CHcVIRH^N: VJell, you are talking about 

15 the state superintendent. 

Ig MRS. BOTHE: No, I am speaking generally 

lY of the proposal. 
Ig THE CHAIRMAN: I ask you to defer that 

19 until later because the motion now is only v.'ith 

20 respect to the state superintendent. Any further discussicjn 

21 on this motion? 



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1 DR. BARD: Is the seconder permitted to 

2 make a brief comment? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: No, sir. 

4 MRS. BOTHE: VJhen V7e vote on this motion, 

5 I myself propose some piecemeal exceptions to this 

6 paragraph. 

7 THE CFiAIRM^vN: You will have an opportunity 

8 later to move the whole sentence or consider anything 

9 else. 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I am just v7ondering v?hich way 

11 to vote. 

12 MR. M4RTINEAU: I am having the same problem. 
15 THE CFAIRM\N: The vote arises now merely 

14 on the motion to amend the section and I will rule so 

15 there V7ill be no uncertainty about it that that does 

16 not mean the section as thus amended is approved. It 

17 merely means the sections thus amended for further 

18 consideration by the Commission. Before Dr. Jenkins 

19 closes, I v7ould like to state my position. I think 

20 this is again one of those areas that is very, very 

21 gray, neither black nor V7hite and I think logic is 



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1 entirely v/ith the Committee and on principle, the 

2 Governor ought to have exactly the same control over 

3 the State Superintendent of Schools as he V70uld over 

4 any other executive officer of the department of the 

5 executive branch. However, I think this is one of 

6 those cases vzhere logic must yield to other and I 

7 think more compelling reasons. We have here, as 

8 indicated by Mr. Power's comments, an area where the 

9 ddcision of the best method of selecting the superintendent 

10 by other states varies widely. You haven't any clear 

11 preponderance in favor of any one method except that 

12 the elected method is used' more widely than any other. 

13 This, I think, reflects vjhat has certainly been true 

14 in Maryland historically and that is that the people 
16 have regarded education and the Department of Education 

16 as if not something except , rather nevertheless something 

17 that should be very carefully guarded, free from 

18 politics and reserved to the power of the people. I 

19 think the effect of the motion here would be to reserve 

20 to the Legislature the power to decide whether the 

21 Superintendent should be an elected offici.al V7hich I 



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1 hope would never happen or should be appointed by the 

2 Governor or appointed by the Board or selected in some 

3 other way. Whether he should serve at the pleasure of 

4 the Board or the pleasure of the Governor, V7hether 

5 he should be removed for cause or removed for any reason 

6 and it seems to me under all the circumstances that 

7 this more nearly accomplishes what the people of the 

8 State of Maryland want. One other comment I would 

9 make on a purely practical basis and that is that the 

10 sensitivity of the people of Maryland V7lth respect to 

11 the Superintendent of Schools and the administration 

12 of the School System ever since the precise tim.e V7as 

13 set up by the Legislature some years ago is such that 

14 I think it V70uld be difficult, if not impossible, to 

15 expla5.n with any chance of success the logical justifi- 

16 cation for the position taken by the Committee. I 

17 vv^ould therefore favor the amendment. Dr. Jenkins, you 

18 may close. 

19 DRo JENKINS: First, the State Superintendent 

20 of Schools has considerable pov7er to determine the kind 

21 of public school system we have, the appointments and 



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1 the like. Now entirely v;ithout reference to the current 

2 campaign, and I want to make that clear, it is very 

3 conceivable that we could at some time have in Maryland 
4: a Governor who, through his appointee, would enter this 

5 very undesirable element into the School System. The 

6 second summary statement is that on this issue there 

7 is among a large proportion of the citizens of the 

8 state and I would say almost unanim.ously among 

9 educators, the deepest and strongest feeling and I v;ould 
10 appeal to the members of this Board v?ho do not have 

H strong feelings on the other side not to vote for 

12 this as Mrs, Bo the says simply for the consistency of 

13 having all officers report to the Governor. 

14 TllE CR4IRM^N; The question arises on the 

15 motion to amend paragraph (b) by inserting at the 

16 end of the first sentence after the words higher educa-" 

17 tion the v7ords and the State Superintendent Schools 

18 and to amend paragraph (c) by inserting in the second 

19 line after the vjord education the words the State Super- 

20 intendent of Schools. The ef feet is to leave the 

21 appointment of the State Superintendent of Schools to 



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the, to be determined by lav;. All those in favor of 
the motion signify by a show of hands. Please hold 
your hands high enough so Mr. Brooks can count them 
all. Contrary? The motion is carried fifteen to 
six. Is there any other motion with respect to this 
section? Mr. Bond? 



MR. BOND: X move the section be adopted 



as amended. 



MR. BROOKS: Second. 

THE C1-IAIRM\N: Mr. Gentry. 

MR. GENTRY: I would like to move an 
amendment to the m.otion on the floor. I would move 
in Section (b) to delete the v;ords starting vrlth the 
words so in the fourth line and delete all the balance 
of that sentence so that the sentence v^ill read the 
Governor shall appo3.nt the members of all boards or 
commissions V7hich serve as heads' of pri^ncipal departments. 
The term of office of such members shall be prescribed 
by law and then put a period. 

THE CHAERMAN: You accept the amendment, 
Mr. Bond? 



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1 MR. BOND: No, sir. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second to the 

3 motion to amend? 

4 DR. BURDETTE: I second. 

5 THE CHAIRl^IAN: Discussion? Mr. Gentry. 

6 MR. GENTRY: For many of the same reasons 

7 that V7ere advanced before, particularly with regard 

8 to some of the boards that have been specifically 

9 mentioned. I have in mind the Board of Regents of 

10 the University of Maryland. I feel that it is well not 

11 to have a complete domination of these boards by any 

12 particular Governor but have rather their terms set 

13 by the Legislature and in some cases the Legislature 

14 could provide that the terms could be for a tv70-year 

15 period or four -year period, half the membership of the 

16 board rotate, could be whatever is determined but there 

17 are and has been brought out here, there are certain 

18 boards which should not be subject to domination of 

19 any particular Governor. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond. 

21 MR. BOInT): I think it is a great over- 



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simplification of what Mrs. Bo the and Mr. Gentry have 
said. For the first years of my appointment to the 
State Board of Public Welfare, the incumbent Governor 
had little to say over the vjelfare policies involving 
millions of dollars, had little to say over the 
policies of the department during the first term of 
his office. This is true in m.any other boards that are 
brought to our attention and again you are taking av7ay 
the pov7er of a strong executive. I can only say 
V7e have gone into it thoroughl}'- and we got this from many, 
m.any people. The chaos V7e have had, instead of chaos 
you have, X believe, and gosh, I am not one for the 
spoils system, I believe you have a more efficient 
system of government. 

MR, DELLA: The reason I raised the question 
before V7as because the VJorkmen's Comipensation Commission 
is termed as a coraaiiission under Paragraph (b) . As far 
as our judicial operation, it was put under Paragraph 
(c). There is no conflict there, it is all right 
because this is a twelve-year term of office and V70uld 
mean the Governor would not have an opportunity to malce 



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1 an appointment in that field. 

2 THE CHAIRMN: I think Judge Adkins answer 

3 is correct, that the Workmen's Compensation Commission 

4 is a quasi-judicial agency under (c) . Dr. Jenkins. 

5 DR. JENKINS: I have a question. Do you 

6 know how many are present over at the Commission 

V organized on this basis? At Morgan State College, for 

8 example, there are nine trustees, one appointed annually 

9 and this was undoubtedly adopted to prevent a single 
10 Governor from having a majority. What is the general 
H practice? 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: I don't think as much as 

13 you might imagine. The language specifically relates 

14 to boards which are heads of the agencies. The Board 

15 of Trustees is not the head of Morgan College, you are. 

16 The Board of Regents of the University of Marylaii is 

17 not the head of the University of Maryland. The presi- 
10 dent is . We have it under research and do not have the 

19 results yet. It would affect certain things such as 

20 the Racing Commission. But it would not affect you. 

21 MR. MILLER: The State Roads Commission. 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: The State Roads Commission 

2 is already subject to action by the Governor. 

3 THE C11AIRM4N: Could I ask you a question 

4 in view of an earlier comment you made inadvertantly, 
6 whether i-n (c) , well, what I meant by that reference 

6 was I thought in answer to a question with respect to 

7 (c) , you indicated that the Board of Regents, for 

8 instance, at the University of Maryland, vzould be 

9 covered and not the president, would there be anything 

10 inconsistent with the position taken by the Committee 

11 if (c) were amended to say president and governing 

12 boards, plural of institutes of higher education vjhich 

13 V70uldmean the Board of Regents at the University of 

i 

14 Maryland, the Board at the State Colleges, the Board 

15 c£ Morgan College and other similar Boards V7ould be 

16 appointed and removed as prescribed by law. 

17 JUDGE ADKINS: I am going to answer that 

18 question somewhat obliquely by saying that in viev7 of 

19 the Commission's role on the Superintendent of Schools, 

20 as Chairman of the Coram.ittee, I v7ould have no objection 

21 to the amendment. I can poll the Committee. 



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1 THE CI^AIRmN: Mr. Gentry, would that 

2 change, maet your motion or would you vjant your motion 

3 to go beyond that? 

4 MR. GENTRY: The only examples you mentioned 

5 are which, the Board of -~ 

6 THE CMIRMAN: It would take out of any 

7 possible operation of (b) , and include under (c) , 

8 governing boards of educational institutions, 

9 institutions of higher education. Xtv.'ould leave under 

10 (b) , boards that are heads of departments of noneducational 

11 agencies. 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: My advisor here tells me 

13 he thinks I was vzrong that he thinks the Board of 

14 Regents vjould be covered in viev? of that and in view of 

15 the earlier Commission's votes, I v7ould think that I 

16 at least v7ould not object to, if Section (c) v;ere 

17 amended as the Chairman suggests. I think it v7ould be 

18 inconsistent in view of your earlier motion to do 

19 othervjise. 

20 MR. GENTRY: That is the purpose I am 

21 striving for. 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: So long as it is limited to 

2 Boards of Education, boards of institutions of learning. 

3 To accept the amendment otherwise V7ould really gut this 

4 whole proposal. 

5 THE CR^ilRMAN: Is there any objection by 

6 anyone to the amendment of Paragraph (c) to insert 

7 after the word president the words and governing boards? 

8 If not, vze will make the amendment. I take it, Mr. Gentry, 

9 that being the case you withdrav? your motion? 

10 MR. GENTRY: I do. 

11 DR. BURDETTE: Did I hear the Chairman of 

12 the Committee say he V7ants more learning in institutes 

13 of higher education? 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: I did, but I would use 

15 higher education as specified here. 

16 MR. MILLER: How would it read? 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Presidents and governing 

18 boards of institutions of higher education, the 

19 State Superintendent of Schools, members of regulatory 

20 and quasi-judicial agencies and all other officers in 

21 the administrative service of the state shall be 



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1 appointed and maybe removed as prescribed by law, 

2 Mr . Power . 

3 MR. POHER: I think this will necessitate 
4: a change in Subsection (b) . 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: What would be the change? 

6 MR. POWER: The Governor shall appoint the 

7 members of all boards or commissions except the members 

8 of higher institutions. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be a stylistic 

10 change. Mr. Gentry. 

11 MR. GENTRY: Could I ask also that the 

12 word state precede institutions? Make it state 

13 institutions of higher education. I am sure that is 

14 v;hat is implied. ^ 

15 THE CMIRMAN: I really don't know. Are 

16 there not some schools, I don't know V7hether they would 

17 be classified as institutions of higher education V7hich 

18 are really not state but V7hich the governor makes the 

19 appointments on? ' 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: Training schools. 

21 MR, BOND: They are made by the court. 



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1 THE CHAIRR\N: McDonough School is a city 

2 

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3 

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7 number of the members of the Board of Governors of 

8 Washington College. 

9 THE CHAIRmN: That is what I meant, Mr. 
Gentry. I am not sure you want to limit it. Mrs. Bothe . 

11 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, I am simply not 

12 prepared to vote on this principle because I don't know 
15 the effect of it. I realize -- 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: On which principle? 

15 MRS. BOTHE: The whole matter and I 

16 don't see much point in perennially amending sections 
IV (b) and (c) to exclude boards V7hether they be educational 

18 or of another nature. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN^ I don't understand what you 

20 mean when you say you are not prepared to vote on this 

21 principle. 



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1 MRS.BOTHE: I can't seem to get from the 

2 Committee just what the practical effect of this 

3 proposal would be. Judge Adkins only a moment ago 

4 expressed the belief that the Board of Regents of the 

5 University of Maryland v.-Duld not have been affected by 

6 this proposal and subsequently stood corrected. I am 

7 notatall clear in my mind as to which or V7hat agencies 

8 would be affected. There may be some of greater 

9 importance than the Board of Regents at the University 

10 of Maryland or the State Superintendent of Schools. 

11 They are the ones brought to mind and I don't see hov7 

12 the Commission can m.ake an intelligent vote on the under- 

13 lying principle involved here V7ithout knowing V7hat the 

14 factual effects V7ill be and simply by making various 

15 exceptions as we are now doing, I don't think meets 

16 the objectn.on and I don't see voting on it this way. 

17 THE CIIAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe, have you looked 

18 at the schedule that is furnished? 

19 MRS. bothe: yes, I have and sitting next to 

20 the reporter V7ho told me not to look too far because I 

21 V70uldn't find the answer. 



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MR. POWER: Mrs. Bothe was inquiring as 
to the facts of Subsection (b) , that is one-half must 
be subject to appointment by the Governor upon taking 
office. This is not included in there. It is in some 
other material but v;e don't have it here this afternoon. 

MRS. BOTHE: Mo one seems to know V7hich 
agencies are regulatory and which are quasi- judicial 
and the whole concept seems to be extremely uncertain. 

MR. BROOKS: On the other hand, you might 
add no matter what the present situation of agencies 
are under the reorganization of the executive branch 
it doesn't make a great deal of difference in that the 
effect could be totally different from anything proven 
on past experience. 

THE CHA.IRMAN: In other words, the 
present investigation being made of the executive 
department and the various agencies of the executive 
department is not go5.ng to be completed until considerably 
after we must have our report in, number one, and number 
two, Mr. Brooks' point even if you knew today V7hat the 
situation v7ould be, that might not be the situation after 



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1 that Committee *s report is acted upon by the Legislature. 

2 MRS. BOTHE: At least it wouldn't be 

3 stratified and nailed into the Constitution. 

4 THE CFAIRmN: I don't think this v;Ould 

5 stratify it. It is a question of principle involved 

6 and your question V7as that you didn't have the factual 

7 basis to enable you to decide the question. Mr. Bond. 

8 MR. BOND: I have no question. 

9 THE CE4IRMAN: Mr. Miller. 

10 MR. MILLER: It might simplify some of 

11 this when you speak of the Governor's right to appoint 

12 members of the Board of V/ashington College or 

13 Westminster somev7here. That wouldn't be controlled by 

14 anything you put in the Constitution one V7ay or the 

15 other, V70uld it? Those appointments are made under the 

16 rules of the institution and are made in accordance with 

17 their rules, not the Constitution of Maryland. The 

18 Governor just has to do it. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: I would think that is 

20 correct as to private institutions governed by the 

21 charter or by the will creating the institution or vzhateve: 



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1 it is. Is there any further discussion as to this 

2 section or any further motion? Mr. Haile. 

3 MR. HAILE: I have a thought that the 

^ Governor should also appoint the members of all boards 

5 or commissions in the administrative services except 

6 regulatory or quasi-judicial agencies. U^ether they 

7 serve as head of the principal departments or not, I 

8 have an idea that the Governor should have the right to 

9 make those appointments and not leave that to the 

10 Legislature. Has the Committee considered that? 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: Well, I would say yes. 

12 V7e dich 't feel it V7as necessary to provide that all 

13 boards should be appointed by the Governor. So boards 
1-^ are appointed by the department, many advisory boards, 

15 and boards of the penal institutions are appointed by 

16 the Department of Welfare all under regulations prescribed 

17 by the Legislature so we didn't think it necessary to 

18 require that all boards be appointed, V7hen talking about 

19 the Governor. Vie are interested in vjhat we call major 

20 departments shall be subject to gubernatorial control. 

21 THE CRAIRM/iN: Mr. Clagett. 



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MR. CLAGETT: Who is Frank T. Ralabate? 

MR. BROOKS: He is a research assistant. 

THE CH/vIRl-I/iN: Any further discussion? 

m. BROOKS: One thought, that is that this 
particular question is one of those that is most crucial 
to the objectives of this ConimissD-on that V7ere stated 
back in September or October a year ago as to the desire 
to have a stronger state government, to have a more 
responsible state government, it was contemplated that 
each branch of the governm.ent should be strengthened, 
that the head of each of the branches should be given 
increased powers over the particular branch. Therefore, 
in the case of the executive for the Governor to be 
the master of his own house, he must have the pov/ers 
to make those persons v?ho are theoreti.cally responsible 
to him .in fact more than responsible and I think this 
is the crux of the strengthening provision of the 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Any further debate on the 


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1 my position and I can do it very briefly because it 

2 merely echos V7hat Mr. Brooks has said. This 

3 Commission on one of the very first reports presented 
^ to it by the Committee on tlie Executive Department 

5 endorsed the principle of a strong executive and the 

6 Committee has been working under that direction of the 

^ Commission for many months. This particular section is, 

8 as Mr. Brooks has pointed out, the keystone or the 

9 heart of that v7hole system. I, therefore, favor the 
10 motion which is to approve the section as amended. 
1"^ Mr. Bond, you v^ant to close the debate? 

12 DR. BURDETTE: ' Hov7 V7as it amended? 

13 THE CHAIRI4AN: In several particulars. 

1'^ Paragraph (a) has been amended by adding and the State 

15 Superintendent of Schools after higher education. Section 

16 (c) has been amended by adding and governing boards 

17 after the v7ords president and adding the words State 
16 Superintendent of Schools after education. Mr. Bond. 

19 MR. BOND: I will yield to the Chairman 

20 of the Committee, Judge Adkins . 

21 JUDGE ADia.NS: I think the gut issue has 



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been quite adequately stated. This is a prime require- 
ment in our opinion if strong executive leadership is 
to be furnished in Maryland. I am sorry that we have 
not been able to ansv;er Mrs. Bothe's questions relative 
to the practical effect. A major constitutional 
revis5.on of this kind, cannot in my judgment ever be 
forecast V7ith accuracy. VJe can only say that all the 
modern students of government that we have been able 
to check have recomnended that whatever the practical 
effect is it will be a good one. I would hope that 
the Commission V70uld see fit to adopt and pass the 
motion that has been presented. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? 
line question arises on the motion to approve and adopt 
Section 12 as amended in Subsections (a) and (b) . 
All in favor of the motion, please signify by a show 
of hands, (a) and (c) . Before you take the vote, I 
omitted Dr. Burdette in stating the changes to mention 
the change in (b) that Professor Power said V70uld have 
to be made m.erely to conform to (c) . 

The motion is /lost./ Judge Adkins , is there 



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1 anything further? 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: The reporter calls my 

3 attention to the fact that there are some very technical 

4 changes that are set forth on Page 21. None of them 

5 at this late hour are sufficiently D.mportant to go 

6 over but we will do so if you V7ant us to. 

7 THE CHA.IPvMr\N: Pursuant to action taken by 

8 the Commission heretofore as I understood it? 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 

10 TliE CHAIRMi\N: And they are detailed on 

11 Pages 21 and 22 of the report. I don't think it is 

12 necessary to take the time' to go over them. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: VJith that our report is 

14 concluded. 

15 THE CHAII<>IAN: Your report is but your 

16 labors are not. We now have 17 and a half golden minute. 

17 VJe V7ill .take up for consideration the report of the 

18 Committee on Legislative Department. This vzill be the 

19 Seventh Report of the Corrmittee on Legislative Department 

20 DR. BAPvD: All right, V7e are considering 

21 lucky 7o V/e hope that this v^ill be so. In general, 



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^ ladies and gentlemen, our report tomorrow morning v/ill 

2 deal with these broad areas. First, in the Seventh 
Report you will notice that V7e have amended certain 

^ sections in complete compliance with requests which you 

_ have made. This covers the first five pages and the 

g first paragraph on page six, so that in general 

„ tomorrow I shall read the underscored words in Sections 

Q 5, 7, 10, 13, 15, 16, and 17 v;hich deal V7ith require- 

Q ments on the part of Commission action at the last 

2Q meeting. Secondly, tomorrov; we will deal with a highly 

•j^]^ important recommendation on the part of this Committee 

22 i^^ respect to unicameralism versus bicameralism. I 

^2 shall read our recom.mendation at this point and tomorrov? 

-.^ we will move one V7ay or ai other. By that majority of 

,c one vote, the Committee recommends to the Commission the 

^g adoption of a bicameral Legislature. The majority 

■yn recognizes that the case for unicameralism is almost 

,Q as strong but believes that Maryland should retain its 

-jg bicameral Legislature. If the Committee should take 

20 action other than the Commission on bicameral Legislature, 

23^ V7e have prepared a text -• 



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1 THE CMAIRMAN: Dr. Bard, that we will have 

2 to act on anyhow because the ComiTiission decided that 

3 should be presented as an alternate so that both systems 
^ V7111 have to be acted on, 

5 ^ DR. BARD: I stand corrected. Finally, 

6 tomorrow vze would like to take up this memo which I 

" remind you is not a manifesto but sets forth the broad 

8 philosophy of the Committee, namely, that we believe 

^ that though the Com.mission has gone along with the 

10 Committee recommendations in respect to strengthening 

^^ the hand of the Legislature there are six areas v/hich 

■^2 V7e think make up a matrix that is highly important, 

13 that it all fits together and that on this sixth occasion 

1^ V7e think V7e have been turned down in areas that are 

15 greatly significant and therefore we would like to 

16 present the possibility of looking at one or everyone, 

17 at one or another of these six scries. Vie V70uld like 

18 to look at all six before V7e finally close our Committee 

19 consideration . "This then V7ill make up our report 
2^ tomorrow. 
21 THE CHAIR1"IAN: Let me ask each member of 



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1 the Commission to do me the favor between now and 

2 tomorrow to read carefully the memo of the Commission 

3 and consider before V7e meet tomorrow morning V7hat we 

4r should do with respect to these recommendations. I say 

5 that bec,ause of these considerations which give me a 

6 great deal of concern. So of the recommendations that 

7 the Comnittec v/ishes to resubmit have been before us 

8 three times, some have been before us twice. At the 

9 July meeting vze had practically a full CommBsion. I 

10 have checked the votes on some of the matters that the 

11 Committee nov7 v^ishes to have us reconsider and on one, 

12 I th5-nk the last one on the continuing Legislature., 

13 the recommendation V7as in opposition sixteen to nine. 

14 VJe have had at times this afternoon seventeen members 

15 of the Commission present. I would think that if we 

16 reconsidered and ended up with a vote, for instance, 

17 of nine to eight to reverse the action previously 

18 taken on a vote of sixteen to nine, it V70uld be most 

19 unfortunate. We haven't any rules of procedure to 

20 enable us to cope \7ith that. I ask you to consider 

21 these m.atters in your decision arriving at your decision 



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1 as to which way to vote and more particularly in, if 

2 the matter or any of them are reconsidered, I sincerely 

3 trust that we vrill not have ultimate decisions by a 

^ very narrow majority which V7ill raise this question of 

5 whether the overruling action is inappropriate. I 

6 would further suggest regardless of V7hich V7ay the 

7 vote goes that they give serious consideration to 

8 including in extension of the report 

9 the differing recommendations. If we adhere to the 

10 present report, that the recommendations of the Committee 

11 be included either as alternate or certainly very 

12 fully spelled out in the report or if V7e adopt the 

13 recon-snendations of the Committee that the other recommen- 

14 dations be included in the report so that the full 

15 picture will be before the Convention. Our session, 

16 because of our commitments to many m.embers must end at 

17 12 o'clock. VJe are not going to be able to finish 
16 everything I had hoped to get over but I think it is 

19 imperative that we conclude the consideration of the 

20 report of the Committee on the Legislative Department 

21 and at least bc;^in some further consideration of some 



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of the problems of the Committee on Political 
Subdivicions . I hope that you v/ill make your debate 
and discussions tomorrow decisive. I do not think that 
V7e can possibly refer back to the Committee on Legisla- 
tive Department any matter for reconsideration. Vie 
are at the end of the line. 

THE CI-IAIRMAN: We v^ill adjourn now until 
9 in the morning. 



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6 PRESENT 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 

Meeting of the Constitutional Convention 
Commission held on Sunday, October 16, 1966 at 9:00 a.m., 
at the Maryland Suite, Holiday Inn, Baltimore, Maryland. 



7 H. Vernon Eney , Esquire, 
Chairman of the Commission 

8 Honorable E. Dale Adkins , Jr., Member 
Dr. Harry Bard, Member 

9 Calhoun Bond, Esquire, Member 
Mrs, Elsbeth Levy Bothe, Member 

10 Dr. Franklin L. Burdette, Member 
Hal C. B. Clagett, Esquire, Member 

11 Mr. Charles Delia, Member 
Mrs. Maurice P. (Leah S.) Freedlander, Member 

12 ' Walter R. Haile, Esquire, Member 
Stanford Hoff, Esquire, Member 

13 John B. Howard, Esquire, Member 
Dr. Martin D. Jenkins, Member 

14 Honorable William Preston Lane, Jr., Member 
Robert J. Martineau, Esquire, Member 

15 Edv7ard T. Miller, Esquire, Member 
Charles Mindel, Esquire, Member 

16 Mr. E. Phillip Sayre, Mem.ber 
Alfred L. Scanlan, Esquire, Member 

17 Melvin J. Sykes, Esquire, Member 

18 ALSO PRESENT 

19 John C. Brooks, Esquire, Executive Director 

20 

Reported by: 
21 A. A. Castiglione 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, we V7ill resume consideration 

2 of the Seventh Report of the Committee on the Legislative 

3 Department. Dr. Bard. 

^ DR. BARD: You remember yesterday I had indicated 

5 Mr. Chairman, that there were three Roman Numerals, m.ore or 

less, in terms of our presentation. I, A review of the 

'J' recommendations that V7ere made in terms of the Sixth Report 

8 and the changes which our Committee made thereof. II, A 

^ recommendation in terms of unicameralism versus bicameralism. 

^^ and III, A discussion of our memorandum. 

•^^ It shall be our procedure to tie in our memoran- 

dum with a discussion of the Sections themselves, so that 

1^ you might see the significance of our memorandum. V7e move, 

^^ then, in terms of Section 5, v;hich V7as the first Section 

15 that we had been asked to change at the time of the last 

1^ Meeting of the Commission. 

1*7 You will recall that in this particular Section 

1® we had been asked to add some words and the words appear on 

^^ Page 2, in Special Session. The General Assembly shall by 
law enact a plan. VJe had not had those v7ords in the Sixth 



12 



20 



Document, and also tvjo lines from the bottom of the Section, 



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3^ The Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction to review 

2 the districting and legislative apportionment of the State 

g and, if it finds that the same are not constitutional--'we 

4 added that -- to grant an appropriate relief. Those were 

g the words added at the recommendation of the Commission. 
6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any comment or questions? The 

Y next Section. 

8 DR. BARD: V7e move then to Section 7, and we 

9 hear we will have -- 

10 THE CHAIRMAN:. May I go back a moment, Dr. Bard? 

11 I have a note and should have asked you about it. In con- 

12 nection with Section 5, in the last sentence, you say, Upon 

13 timely petition, and I realize that that word was inserted 

14 after a discussion at a last Meeting, but I v7onder if it 

15 isn't going to be just a trouble maker and wonder why we 
15 care whether there is any reference to the time when the 

17 petition is filed? Could this be left to the Supreme Court? 

18 I mean by this, that if the Petition is too late 

19 for the Court to do anything effectively, I v7ould say so, 

20 if it has taken effect, but the Court still thinks it could 

21 upset it, what is gained by saying tim-ely petition? 



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1 DR. BARD: We certainly would go along v;ith de- 

2 leting the word, 1 would think. V7e added it because there 
5 V7ere so many who felt that there ought to be some timing on 

4 this. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Judge Adkins , I'm not sure, but I 

6 think you suggested, either you or Mr. Sykes suggested the 

7 word at the last Meeting, but I'm not sure. 

8 MR. SYKES: No, I think I suggested it and I 

9 suggested it because there was a flat ten-day limitation 

10 and we didn't want to vzrite the flat limitation in, but we 

11 didn't give any consideration to any limitation should be 

12 written in at all and I think you are right, that the best 

13 thing to do is not put it in at all. 

14 THE CHAIRi'IAN: In other words, if no one acts and 

15 the plan is in effect for two years, it seems to me that it 

16 still would be possible for the Court to say it is not a 

17 proper plan. 

18 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I don't remember the 

19 details, but one of the points brought up before had some- 

20 thing to do with the possible assumption of jurisdiction by 

21 a Federal Court, there V7as some worry about that, which I 



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1 didn't quite follow, but that was one of the reasons they 

2 changed the ten days . 

g THE CHAIRMAN: That was connected with the ten 

4. days, yes. In the absence of objection -- 
5 MR. SCANLAN: Mr. Chairman, one thing you just 

Q said there causes me some concern. You said the plan can 

r^ be in effect for tv7o years and anyone can challenge it. I 

3 think it \ms the thinking of the Committee, since we are 
9 putting into the Constitution a grant of jurisdiction and 

10 the procedure by V7hich a nev? redis trie ting or reappor- 

11 tionment can be tested, I certainly, I better speak only for 

12 myself, from discussions of the Committee, I thought V7e 

13 V7ere of the view there ought to be a limitation, that the 

14 people just couldn't sit back and later come in to upset a 

15 plan that they could have had an opportunity to upset 
15 promptly. 

17 That, I think, is one of the reasons we originally 

18 had a flat limitation of time. Then, when that was taken 

19 out and the word, timely, substituted, I wasn't at that 

to 

20 Meeting, but I have no objection/ timely. The point I'm 

21 trying to make is I don't think it should be left completely 



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1 loose. I think there should be sonie manifestations to the 

2 challenge to the new statute to be timely, 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Great is the pov7er of the advocate. 
4r I thought you v7ould have argued just to the contrary, be- 

5 cause that argument V7ould have completely defeated you in 

6 your fair representation case, because it certainly was not 

7 filed within any particular time. The plan for apportion- 

8 ment had been in effect for a long, long time. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: That is correct, but this is a new 

10 system V7e're starting here. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

12 MR. MILLER: Of course, it seems to me, Mr. 

13 Chairman, that timely doesn't mean anything much. 

14 THE CRAIRMAN: Let me interrupt a minute. There 

15 was a suggestion to the Chair there ought to be a motion. 

16 DR. BARD: Before we move, may I remind you that 

17 in our Sixth minutes V7e had, Upon petition of any eligible 

18 voter filed no later than ten days after the enactment of a 

19 plan or after the final date for action set forth above, 

20 whichever first occurs, and the Commission felt that this 

21 was a rather involved statement and this is V7hy we changed 



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1 it to tiinely. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: To get to the matter, I move the 

3 word, timely, be stricken. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Seconded. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are you 

7 ready for the question? The question arises on the motion 

8 to strike the word, timely, before the word, petition, in 

9 the last line of this Section. All in favor signify by 

10 saying aye. Not in favor, no. The ayes seem to have it. 

11 The ayes have it. 

12 ' Now, I had another comment V7ith reference to that 

13 Section and I think this applies in one of the other reports 

14 Did we not decide when we use the term districting, we would 

15 say congressional districting and when we used apportionment 

16 we v7ould say apportionment? 

17 DR. BARD: I don't think we did. That came up 

18 before and I believe we decided not to. 

19 MR. BROOKS: That is my recollection, too. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Delia? 

21 MR. DELLA: If the Legislature would draft a plan 



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1 of redistricting and it v;ould not meet with the consensus 

2 of opinion of a number of voters, as such, V7hat recourse 

3 would they have to upset the redistricting plan? Would 

4 that have to stay in effect until the next General Assembly? 

5 THE CHAIRT'I/^: Dr. Bard? 

6 DR. BARD: I think so. Didn't v;e pass some reso- 

7 lution in respect to petitioning, in regard to reapportion- 

8 ment or districting? 

9 MR. BROOKS: Yes. 

10 DR. BARD: I think the answer is yes. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: It's not subject to referendum 

12 under other action of the Commission. Any further comment 

13 or question as to Section 5? Mr. Scanlan. 

14 MR. SCANLAN: I think the Chair's suggestion 

15 about including the v^ord , congressional, V7hen you use the 

16 V7ord, districting, that you use the V7ord , legislative ap- 

17 portionment is a good one and I think we need to do it in 

18 two places -- 

19 MR. BROOKS: I believe Dr. Wins low pointed out 

20 in the last Meeting that you have both districting and ap- 

21 portionment in regard to just the Legislature. 



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MR. SCANLAN: I didn't catch that. 

2 THE CHAIRI-IAN: You have both districting and ap- 

3 portionment with reference to the Legislature. 

4 MR. SCANLAN: Then do we mean in Section 5, when 

5 we say the Governor shall present a plan of districting and 

6 legislative apportionment, that we're speaking only then 

7 of a redistricting and reapportionment of the Legislature or 

8 are we also talking of a congressional districting plan? 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Both, but districting means, as 

10 Mr. Brooks points out, or could mean congressional dis- 

11 tricting or legislative districting, both. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: Yes, but I think we really should 

13 use them as terms of art, and even though technically, in 

14 a broad political science sense, it can mean legislative 

15 districts. I wonder if it's wise to use it in tv;o senses or 

16 mean it in two senses in the Constitution? 

17 MR. MILLER: It's still dependent on the latest 

18 census report, is it not, and the fact that there are tv?o 

19 different kinds of districts, it would seem to me that the 

20 word v7ould cover both. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Say re? 



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1 MR. SAYRE: I guess I had not thought this to in- 

2 elude congressional redis tricting and, if that is included 
5 in this Section, I think we have to make separate reference 

4 to that, congressional redistricting, as such. 

5 ^ THE CHAIRMAN: It certainly V7as intended to be 

6 included. The whole discussion indicated that, I think. 

7 MR. SAYRE: If that is included, I think we have 

8 to make separate reference, because you could have redis- 

9 tricting of a legislative district just to keep a balance 

10 of the reapportionment and /or you can do the reverse. 

11 MR. BROOKS: It depends on the plan the Governor 

12 presents. 

13 MR. S CAN LAN : I understand the phrase, A plan 

14 of districting and legislative apportionment, to mean plan 

15 covering congressional districting and also a reapportion- 

16 ment of the Legislature. The latter, of course, would 

17 also involve plans in the creation of new legislative dis- 

18 tricts. 

19 DR. BARD: Right. 

20 MR. SCANLAN: But it isn't the same type of dis- 

21 tricting you are talking about when you say a plan of 



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2^ districting. 

2 DR. BARD: How else would you say it? 

5 MR. SCANLON: I vjould say a plan of congressional 

4 districting and legislative apportionment. You are using 

5 the vjord, district, nov;, in a different sense and it's em- 

6 braced in the larger function of apportionment. VJhen you 

7 apportion the Legislature, naturally, you have to have dis- 
tricts, but to talk about that in the same sense you are 

9 talking about congressional redistricting, I think, is con- 

10 fusing. 

11 Maybe I've been too close to this and -- 

12 ' THE CHAIRMAN: Could you meet both objections if 

13 you said, it's a 'little more cumbersome, A plan of congres- 
14, sional districting and legislative districting or apportion- 
15 ment? 

15 MR, MARTINEAU: Or legislative apportionment and 

17 districting, 

18 MR. CLAGETT: Couldn't you simply say, A plan 

19 of congressional and legislative districting and apportion- 

20 • ment of the General Assembly? 

21 MR. SCANIJ^N: Maybe it's just because -- 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Well, let me do this. I don't 
want to take the time on a matter of style, but I think it's 
important to have the matter, the principle fairly under- 
stood and then let the Committee on Style wrestle v;ith it. 
I understand that it is the position of this Commission that 
the plan referred to in this Section is a plan that could 
embrace congressional districting, legislative districting, 
legislative apportionment. 

Is there any dissent from that? Then the 
Committee on Style could wrestle V7ith it. 

I'd like, however, to ask another question with 
reference to the same matter, so the Committee on Style 
will have no uncertainty. 

This sentence refers to a plan for districting 
and legislative apportionment, as though a plan had to em- 
brace all of these things. I take it that that is not 
necessarily true? 

DR. BARD: No, it is not true. 

MR.SCANLAN: Hopefully, it wouldn't be true. 
Hopefully, there would be at least tv;o plans. 

THE CHAII^MAN: So, this should be phrased or coul 



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1 be phrased to clarify that also. 

2 MR, BROOKS: A single plan can present two dis- 

3 tricting plans within a single plan. 

4: DR. BARD: Yos, but there could be t\7o and there 

5 could be .three, and this is why, I think, having the Style 

6 Committee look at it, so it could be one or the other, is 

7 in order. 

8 MR. MILLER: Won't it be plans, in any case, be- 

9 cause wouldn't the Governor have to submit -- they are on 

10 entirely different principles -- I mean, they are on the 

11 same principles, of course, but entirely different situa- 

12 tions. 

13 Maryland is alloted X number of congressmen and 
14: it's got to be redis trie ted to fit that number, v;hether ther 

15 are more or less. Also, V7e have population changes within 

16 our Legislature, and it seems to me that there might be, 

17 if Maryland picked up or lost a congressman, there might be 

18 plans rather than plan. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: V/ell, I think this is true, but 

20 this V7e can leave to the Style Committee. I understand my 

21 note and I don't think there's any trouble. 



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1 DR. BARD: Let us move now to Section 7. First 

2 I'd like to call your attention to the fact that at the 

3 last Commission Meeting the Committee was asked to be 
4: specific in regard to the date. In our sixth draft, Section 

5 7 read, The General Assembly may continue its session, and 

6 we have now included the v7ords, General Assembly shall con- 

7 vene. We give the actual date of convening, on the third 

8 Wednesday of January of each year, and unless otherwise 

9 provided by law. These were the words that we were asked 

10 to include. 

11 Now, this Seventh Section marks the first illus- 

12 tration of the kind of recommendations that V7e v7ould like 

13 to m.ake for your observation. You will recall that yester- 
14- day I said that our Committee was quite disturbed about the 

15 fact that the heart of our main thrust which was in terms 

16 of giving more power to the Legislature had been disturbed 
IV by actions in terms of six movements which are herein stated 

18 I V70uld like to say, to be fair in this report, 

19 too, that on other accounts, the Commission had followed 

20 along V7ith our recommendations in respect to strengthening 

21 the hands of the Legislature, but in terms of these six 



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ideas, we felt there was considerable damage and we hope 
the Commission will further look at these. 

In Section 7, there are tv7o points, the first tv;o 
points of our memorandum. The first point is that the 
Legislature should be a continuing body. I think I'm right, 
Mr, Chairman, in saying that the first time V7e submitted 
this idea, it passed. The second time, it failed, and was 
there a third time on that one? 

MR. BROOKS: Yes. 

DR. BARD: And the third time on this one, it 
failed, but the first time it did pass. 

Now, the second point of our memorandum deals 
with the Legislature shall have the pov7er to convene itself. 
We feel even more strongly on this point. We would like to 
add beyond the one dealing v;ith the Governor may convene 
the General Assembly at special session at any time, but the 
Legislature may call itself into session upon three-fifths 
vote of its body. 

We feel there are any number of necessities in 
this regard and it would give the power v;hich the Legislature 
should have. The requirement that there be three- fifths or 



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two-thirds, which fraction we ultimately decide -- 

MR. MILLER: Of each House. 

DR. BARD: That's correct, of each house. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, Dr. Bard, let me interrupt. 
This cmbgdies a motion or request to reconsider two separate 
matters, both pertaining to this Section, and I think under 
our rules, since it is requested by the Committee, it will 
be submitted to those present without debate and if the 
motion is granted, then we v7ould debate other matters. 

The first question is whether we shall reconsider 
the decision of the Commission on the issue of V7hether the 
Legislature shall be a continuing body or whether it shall 
convene for a stated number of days each year. This recom- 
mendation was approved by the Commission in June. It was 
rejected by a vote of 10 to 13 in July. It V7as not dis- 
cussed in August. It was rejected in September. I do not 
have the vote because we do not have the minutes. The ques' 
tion on reconsideration is submitted v7ithout debate. 

All those in favor of reconsideration of this 
question at this time signify by a shov7 of hands. Contrary? 
The motion is carried nine to seven. 



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1 Now, Dr, Bard, do you vant to move your Amend- 

2 ment? 

2 DR. BARD: I would thus move that V7e add into 

4 this document the statement that the General Assembly shall 

5 be a continuing body. The General Assembly may continue 

6 its session so long as in its judgment the public interest 

7 may require. This is the V7ay it read before. 

8 THE CHAIRI'IAN : Is there a second? 

9 MR. SAYRE: Second. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? 

11 MR. MARTINEAU: I'd like to ask a question. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau. 

13 Mr'. 14ARTINEAU: VJould you repeat that again? 

14 What is your recommendation? 

]^5 DR. BARD: We include within this document, and 

15 perhaps I ought to -- Al, do you have the exact v7ording you 

17 submitted some time ago? 

18 MR. MARTINEAU: I thought it was, as shall be 

19 provided by law, v/as your original recommendation. 

20 DR. BARD: That's right, it closed with, There 

21 shall be provided by lav;. It stated that they would have 



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the right to actually designate at the beginning of the 






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term how long -- 






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MR. KiARTINEAU: Or pass a law for -- 






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DR. BARD: For that particular session. 






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MR. MARTINEAU: No, for every session. This, as 






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I recall, was one of the points that gained a lot of favor, 






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that they wouldn't go into each session v;ithout having any 






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idea v;hen they would terminate, that they would know -- 






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DR. BARD: Here it is. The General Assembly 






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shall be a continuous body meeting in regular annual session 


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commencing on the third Wednesday of January every year and 






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terminating as provided by law. 






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MR.' MARTINEAU: Right. Is that your recommenda- 






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tion? 






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DR. BARD: That's my recommendation, as read nov7. 






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THE CHAIR>1AN: That was changed to read, con- 






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tinuing body, instead of, continuous. 






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DR. BARD: Continuing body, that's correct. 






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THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion, Mr. 






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Martineau? 






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MR. MARTINEAU: No. 








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1 THE CHAIRl-IAN: Mr. Miller? 

2 MR, MILLER: I have already expressed iriy viex-JS 
2 on this, on what I think is important. There is one thing 
4 that has developed since v;e talked about it before. We've 
g already got a provision now in the event of death and 

6 certain situations and so on, the Legislature will call 

rj itself together. 

8 I fail to see, when the Governor calls a special 

9 session, why they have to go through the formality of re- 

10 organizing or if there is an emergency, I think these words 

11 merely mean that the machinery having been set up at the 

12 start of the session, they V7ill continue unless it's change 

13 which the Legislature can do, each House can change any- 

14 thing, but v;hen they are called together or if there is 
0^5 a special emergency, the machinery is already in operation 

15 The committees are appointed. There is no need of having 

17 a reorganization which, at the present time, they usually 

18 start off by just approving everything they have done be- 

19 fore, and where could it hurt anything? Where could it 

20 possibly hurt anything to give them that pov/er? 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: Am I to understand that this 



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1 Commission can nov; reverse itself on nine votes, v;hen it has 

2 twice rejected this by a vote of ten or better? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the problem that I mentioni^d 

4 yesterday evening and I suppose theoretically it could hap- 

5 pen. I think the Commission ought to be exceedingly careful 

6 about taking any such action. 

7 MR, MILLER: I vould like to make a suggestion, 

8 and I think V7e've got to be fair about it. I think that 

9 any action we take, if anyone of these provisions are 

10 changed again, it seems to me it ought to be with the 

11 proviso that every Member be given an opportunity to vote 

12 by ballot or send it into the Secretary, or something, be- 

13 cause I think we should have everybody have their say, 

14 whether they happen to be here or not. 

15 THE CHAIRi4AN: That's not practical, because we 

16 cannot conduct mail ballots and the Members vjouldn't be 

17 present here for discussion. 

18 MR. DELLA: Mr. Chairman, as I understand, a con- 

19 tinuing session would be when they convene the session the 

20 third Wednesday of January, they would stay in session until 

21 their v7ork is completed. Now, would this preclude any 



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1 operation by the Legislature itself of recessing, say after 

2 a month and then coming back into session again, say 30 
5 days after that? 

4 THE CHAIRiMAN: I would think not. 

5 ^ MR, DELLA: It v7ould make this possible, then? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I would think so. 

7 DR. BARD: If their law said so. 

8 MR. SAYRE: Their own lav7 said so. 

9 THE" CHAIRMAN: Dr. Jenkins? 

10 DR. JENKINS: V/ith the problems of the Congress, 

11 as we all knov;, appropriation acts may long be deferred 

12 after the beginning of a particular fiscal year, do you 

15 propose any protection here on the continuing session that 

14 the appropriation bills must be passed at a certain time? 

15 DR. BARD: We've discussed that on a number of 

16 occasions. Unfortunately, I v;as not present, in terms of 

17 that section on finance. 

18 ■• " THE CHAIRMAN: On the report that the Second 

19 Committee on Finance, as originally presented, this pro- 

20 posal nov7 presented before you would wreak havoc, because 

21 it was geared to the end of the session. Hovjever, a changf 



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was suggested yesterday and accepted by the Commission which 
would tie the deadline for action on the budget to the be- 
ginning of the session or a stated number of days after the 
beginning of a session. Mr. Scanlan? 

MR. SCANLAN: I certainly am av7are of what might 
appear to be, in fairness to permitting us to retread this 
ground. Let me say this, though. It is entirely possible 
that the Members of this Committee did not appreciate how 
they had less strengthened the Legislature by the proposals 
previously adopted, in relation to vjhat they had done just 
yesterday to the Executive Branch. A very broad, indeed, 
and radical pov7er vjas approved by this Commission, so the 
Governor could put his own House together and run it. We 
passed a very fine and moderate judiciary order, making 
the Judiciary very strong in this State, indeed. 

So, this is just to give you one more look, to 
see V7hether in relation to a strong new Executive in the 
Constitution and in relation to a strong new Judiciary in 
the Constitution, you don't want the Legislature to have 
the pox-rer to run its ov7n house, that you don't trust the 
Legislature to call itself in session V7hen business demands 



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1 them and to go home when it doesn't demand them. I, for 

2 one, trust them. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Judge Adkins? 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: I would like to simply make this 

5 comment, that at this late date, this means a major rewrite 

6 of at least two Reports and I think more on V7hat this Com- 

7 mission has acted. This would have to be largely rewritten, 

8 the Budget Report will have to be rewritten. 

9 I simply would like to ask if the Committee on 

10 the Legislature would like to take on those resjjonsibilities 

11 We had written this Report after a discussion on this prob- 

12 lem and I personally take a dim view of doing this all over. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: I would like to ask Dr. Bard, 

14 since V7e are doing V7hat V7e are now six times, or possibly 

15 more, over, whether there is any priority in the thinking 

16 of the Committee among those six suggested problems? 

17 DR. BARD: Yes, there is, and perhaps I'm 

18 speaking as an individual here. I, myself, would feel more 

19 strongly in terms of the next proposal in respect to Section 

20 7, and I'm glad that you have asked the question, nam.ely, 

21 that concerned V7ith the authority and right of the 



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1 Legislature to convene itself. 

2 In this respect, incidentally, the last time we 

3 voted on the question, there was an absolute tie, and in 

4 answer to Judge Adkins ' point, in this respect, to my know- 

5 ledge, and the Chairman might voice an opinion here, there 

6 would be no requirement other than an additional sentence 

7 in this one place and no other place. 

8 My ov7n feeling would be that in respect to 

9 Section 7, which is before us nov;, I would feel more strongly 

10 in regard to the second proposal which v;e V7ill make by motion 

11 too, where there has been no vote, other than one tie vote, 

12 than I would in regard to this one. 

13 However, I do feel that certainly in theory and 

14 in terms of argument and actuality, a Legislature faced 

15 V7ith a Constitutional deadline for adjournment may have a 

16 spirit of action, but forced action, as v;e state here, is 

17 often precipitous and unv7ise. So, I v7ould tend to think that 

18 this one, I would not have a strong feeling about this one 

19 as I would about the other, also in terms of what this would 

20 do to past action. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other debate? Mr. Say re? 



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MR. SAYRE: If on the second session, and I'm 
asking all the Members of the Committee, we had a provision 
wherein the Legislature after 70 days voted by, say, three- 
fifths or tv;o-thirds to extend its session for a period of 
days not to exceed a certain number and it had the right to 
do that all the time, would not that gain the same benefit 
as a continuing session, with set limitations each time it 
so voted to extend itself? 

DR. BARD: I'd say in part, and this is why I 
feel that way about our second proposal. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau, I think you are 
correct that .you only asked a question before. You may 
have the floor. 

MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to make the comment 
this summer I read a nev7spaper release, I think it V7as put 
out by the Council on State Governments, it was a story 
about the pending Constitutional Amendments in the various 
states to change the length of the session of the Legisla- 
ture and, as I recall, virtually every state in V7hich there 
was a Constitutional limit on the session of the Legisla- 
ture had a pending Constitutional Amendment to change it, 

and I 



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think the article went on to state how this happens year 
after year after year, that wherever there is a Constitu- 
tional limitation on the session of the Legislature, there 

4: are continuous Constitutional Amendments changing these 

5 terms around and the terms that were recited in there vary, 

6 of course, from state to state; but the one thing that v;as 

7 clear from the article was that no matter what figure was 

8 chosen, there were Constitutional Amendments pending to 

9 change them, and I think that only points up the V7eakness 

10 of putting in such a limitation in the Constitution. 

11 THE CHAIRI>IAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Millcjr 

12 you have spoken on the question, so has Mr. Delia. Any 

13 further discussion? Mr. Sykes? 

14 MR. SYKES: I would like to ask a question. I 

15 wasn't on the Commission when any of this previous action 

16 was taken. I was impressed just now by Congressman Miller's; 

17 point that the organization of the Legislature certainly 

18 ought to carry over into special sessions and maybe the 

19 following year over a specified period. 

20 What I wanted to ask was whether the third recom- 

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should have a two-year term would, if inserted in the 
Constitution, gain all the benefits of the continuation of 
the organization of the Legislature or whether there is 
something in the first recommendation that the Legislature 
be a continuing body v;hich would give more in the way of 
advantages -- I mean v;hich would make any difference in the 
continuation of the organization of the Legislature? 

THE CliAIPvMAN: Mr. Sykes , let me comment on one 
thing. I listened to your question and I think perhaps 
Congressman Miller was wrong. When the Legislature organize^ 
for a regular session, that organization continues through 
any special session that may be called in that year. You 
don't reorganize the Legislature to elect new presiding 
officers, at least under the present rules, every time there 
is a special session. 

MR. SYKES: Well, that's one thing I wanted to 
know. The other is, the Committee also recommended that 
this be carried over for two years, but you don't need to 
make the Legislature a cont5.nuing body, do you, in order to 
have the carry-over even for two years? You could do that 
by special provision, is that correct? 



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THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 

MR. MILLER: I was not going to speak. I wanted 
to ansv7er a question. As a Member of the Committee, the 
Chair asked what we thought about the relative Report. 
Speaking only for myself, the main principle I want to see 
adopted, if V7e can do it, is the right of the Legislature 
of its own initiative to have a session, whether it's speciafl 
or general and, from that point of view, this second proposi 
tion, which would not involve any extra v7ork for anybody, 
if V7e could just have it in here that the Legislature was 
its ov7n boss to the extent that if three- fifths of the Mem- 
bers of each House wanted to have a session, they could have 
it, I would be satisfied about this other, although I do 
think this is a better way. 

THE CHAIRI'IAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Hoff? 

MR, HOFF: Mr. Chairman, according to my notes, 
and I may be wrong, at our July 18th Meeting, in consideration 
of the Fourth Report of the Committee on Legislative Depart- 
m.ent , we defeated the continuous session proposition by a 
vote of 16 to 9. 

THE CHAIRMAN: 10 to 13 is what I have in the 



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1 TTiinutes. There was another proposition, Senator Hoff, 

2 which was passed by a vote of 16 to ^, V7hich followed that, 

3 and that was that the Legislative session should be 70 

4 days, but the precise point here on the continuing session 

5 vjas a separate vote. There were two matters both connected 

6 with this Section and both closely tied together. 

7 MR, HOFF: I would suggest, knowing how some of 

8 the absent Members feel about this proposition, and I knov7 

9 how I feel about it, and Judge Adkins , this question is 

10 bound to come up again when there is a larger representation 

11 of the Committee present; I'm just v;ondering, by passage of 

12 this proposition today, if V7e are not imposing on some of 

13 our other Committees a terrific burden of rev;riting that 

14 will simply have to be undone again at a later date when 

15 this proposition is voted on. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further debate? Before Dr. 
IV Bard proposes, I V70uld like to state my position. First, 

18 on the matter of substance, I would agree that logic v7ould 

19 support the position of the Committee and initially I was 

20 one of those voting to approve the principle of the con- 

21 tinuing Legislature. However, I think this is one of those 



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1 situations where the practicalities outvjeigh the logic. 

2 I think that the necessity, the desirability of 
5 having a fixed date in the year when lav;s beconie effective, 
4: the necessity for business, the Courts, lawyers and the 

5 populace generally to know when the Legislature will be in 

6 session, not from day to day, but to know in advance and 

7 what was referred to in earlier debate as the upsetting ef- 

8 feet of the Legislative section are all very practical con- 

9 siderations which to me lead away from the idea of the con- 

10 tinning session. 

11 On the other hand, I feel that, in line V7ith our 

12 general principle, the Legislature ought to be made as in- 

13 dependent as possible and I would, therefore, favor and did 
14: vote in favor of a provision allowing the Legislature by an 

15 extraordinary vote to call itself into session. 

16 Hov7ever, as this matter is nov7 presented, I 

17 think it would be well nigh disastrous for this Commission 

18 by a vote today to approve the idea of a continuing session. 

19 I do not think it is a simple Amendment, of simply rephrasirjg 

20 this one Section. I think we do have to go over all of the 

21 other Articles, because there are many- cross references in 



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1 them, regular sessions, special sessions of the Legislature 

2 and numerous other provisions that would make it necessary 

3 to go over it with a fine tooth comb. 

4 In addition, I would feel that it vjas very un- 

5 fortunate if, in the light of the previous votes, the one 

6 of -- I don't know the September vote, but 10 to 13, that 

7 is, rejected by 13 Members on one occasion and then the 

8 very closely allied proposition that the Legislative session 

9 be limited to 70 days passed by 16 to 9, if by a vote of any 

10 number of Members today less than that, either of those 

11 majorities, we reverse that position. 

12 We are confronted with the necessity of finishing 

13 our task and it seems to me that if we allov; ourselves to 

14 reconsider and change our position here, we necessarily must 

15 accord that privilege at the next Meeting of the Commission 

16 to the other Members. 

17 I v7ould personally feel that the previous action 

18 of the Commission on this issue should stand and that the 

19 report should carry in its body the text of an alternate 

20 provision providing for a continuing session, so that the 

21 Convention V7hen it debates the matter anew, if it wished 



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1 to, could adopt the principle of a continuing session. 

2 GOVERNOR LANE: Mr. Chairman, I think it would 
5 be inost unfortunate nov; for us to clash with what we have 
4. already decided, knowing that would wreak more havoc. To 
5 speak briefly, I agree with the Chairman, I agree with the 
e viex-js he expressed, but I do think that the Legislature 

7 should have the power under a certain vote to call itself 

9 into session. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

10 DR. BARD: Mr. Chairman, I am deeply impressed 

11 with the logic of your presentation and I would make tliis 

12 point about the procedure. It is too bad V7e've come to 

13 this wisdom, about a continuing session rather late in life, 

14 but I find this is true in life with me, as an individual 

15 Member, as V7ell as the Commission. I, therefore, V7ithdraw 
15 the motion V7ith the strong appeal that we move favorably 

17 in terms of the second motion which concerns itself with 

18 the power to convene. I m.ake this move V7ith the hope that 

19 I interpret properly the viGV7s of the Committee as a 

20 whole, and I believe I do. Would that not be true? 

21 MR. MILLER: That's mine. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bo the, you and Mr. Sykes 






2 


seconded the motion. Do you agree to withdraw? 






5 


MR. SYKES; Yes. 






4 


THE CHAira-IAN: The motion is withdrawn. 






5 


MR. BOTHE: I don't believe I -- it's the way I 






6 


intended to vote. 






V 


THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, I thought you did. 






8 


Who seconded the motion? 






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MR. SCANLAN: I seconded the motion. 






10 


THE CHAIRMAN: Do you consent to it? 






11 


MR. SCANIJ^N: By all means. I'm glad the 






12 


Chairman ran out on us, because we were just about to run 






13 


out on him. 






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DR. BARD: The Chairman interpreted the Committee 


's 




15 


viev7s properly. 






16 


MR. CLAGETT: I believe that means they are in 






17 


accord. 






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an 

DR. BARD: I would move that/additional sentence 






19 


be added in Section 7 permitting -- 






20 


THE CHAIKMAN: First you move to reconsider the 






21 


extra -- 








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1 DR. BARD: We better. Reconsider the action of 

2 a tie vote in connection with this proposal, is that it? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: No, there is more than one action 

4 The motion, I would take it, is to reconsider the previous 

5 actions of the Commission in rejecting the idea that the 

6 Legislature could call itself into special session by an 

7 extraordinary vote. 

8 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I second that motion, Mr. 

9 Chairman. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not debatable. The 

11 proposition heretofore presented V7as that the Legislature 

12 could call itself into special session on the written re- 

13 quest of three-fifths of the Members of each House. That 

14 was rejected at the August Meeting by a tie vote. It was 

15 again rejected in September. I do not have the minutes and 

16 do not know the vote. Now, the motion is not debatable. 

17 All those in favor of reconsidering that vote, 

18 please signify by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion 

19 is carried, 12 to five. 

20 Dr. Bard, do you want to nov7 move to add a sen- 

21 tence, I believe? 



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1 DR. BARD: I'm going to ask Congressman Miller 

2 to V7ord that, because he originally worded it? 

3 MR. MILLER: Would that be what we were just 

4 talking about? 

5 DR. BARD: Yes. The Legislature may call itself 

6 into session. It's in Section 7, Page 3. You were the one 

7 who introduced it originally. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: The language that was presented 

9 in the motion in August was that the following language be 

10 added to Section 7, and this would be at the end of the last 

11 sentence: And must convene the General Assembly in special 

12 session upon the written request of three-fifths of the 

13 Members of each House thereof. So that the last sentence 

14 will read, The Governor may convene the General Assembly in 

15 special session at any time and must convene the General 

16 Assem.bly in special session upon the v;ritten agreement of 

17 three-fifths of the Members thereof. Is that the m.otion? 

18 MR. MILLER: Yes. 

19 DR. BARD: I think we talked about the importance 

20 of this Section on a number of occasions. Indeed, the last 

21 sessions make it perfectly clear that unless the General 



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1 Assembly has this particular pov;er, it cannot carry out 

2 some of the activities we discussed. 
5 THE CHAIPxHAN: Any further discussion? Ready 

4 for the question? 

5 MR. SAYRE: I have a question. The way this 

6 motion reads is that you have to have three-fifths peti- 

7 tioning the Governor to reconvene, is that right? 

8 MR. MILLER: Three- fifths of the Members of each 

9 House and then he must call it. 

10 MR. SAYRE: V7ell, suppose that we meet 30 days. 

11 I'm just thinking v7ouldn't it be easier for the Members to 

12 vote by three-fifths to extend or re-extend for addi- 

13 tional periods not to exceed 30 days each? 

14 MR. MILLER: The unfortunate part about all of 

15 that is, as Judge Adkins has pointed out, this would be a 

16 special session. The only thing this would do, as I see 

17 it, is to change what we have already begun, to the extent 

18 that in addition to the Governor V7anting to call it, he migbjt 

19 be made to call it, and that's the only thing V7e're adding 

20 to the v7hole Constitution and I think it should be there 

21 and it's very important. 



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MR. SAYRE: All right. 

THE CHAIR>1AN: A ay further discussion, Judge 



Adkins? 



JUDGE ADKINS: I have to make the same point I 
made before, that I think this means each of the major Re- 
ports V7e adopted here have to be scanned and reviewed to 
make sure language would have to be changed. Language in 
my Report v7ould have to be changed. The Executive veto is 
tied in and will have to be rev^ritten. That will have to 
be done. 

THE CHA.IRMAN: I don't follow when you say the 
Executive veto is tied to two Sections? 

JUDGE ADKINS: It's tied to the concept of the 
limited session. Now, if you give the Legislature the power 
to convene itself, the only thing you are doing is giving 
them a povjer to adopt a continuous session. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, this would be a special ses- 
sion and, therefore, I would think would tie in V7ith the 
language of your Executive Department Report, would it not? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I don't think it will, but I can't 
answer that v7ithout examining it in detail. 



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MR. MILLER: It would seem to me, Dale, that 
your Report provides for special session. The only thing 
this adds is that instead of the Governor calling it for 
himself, he calls it because he has received a petition, 
and I can't see hox7 it vjould change any other Section that 
we've adopted. It's just another special session, that's 
all it is. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are you 
ready for the question? 

The question arises on the motion to add to the 
last sentence of Section 7, the phrase. And must convene 
the General Assembly in special session upon the vjritten 
request of three-fifths of the Members of each House thereof 
All those in favor, please signify by a show of hands. 
Contrary? The motion is carried 12 to five. 

Now, still on Section 7. 

DR. BARD: Still on Section 7. We have one more 
point and, herein, V7e don't feel as strongly. However, we 
would like to call your attention to this particular gap, 
as V7e see it, and that's point 3. The legislature should 
have a two-year term. The legislature, V7hen convened. 



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^ should continue its organizational existence for two years. 

2 A two-year term for the legislature V7ould permit the initial 

5 organization of the two houses to carry over to the second 

4 session. This would eliminate the need to organize the 

5 second session when it convenes and vjould permit the second 

6 session to commence its work promptly at the point where the 

7 first session left off. 
Q I might add here that this particular recommenda- 
9 tion v;as tied in to Recom.mendation 4, which would need to be 

10 written in, the one dealing with staggered terms. If you 

11 turn your page, we have recommended on another occasion 

12 that. One-half of the members of the legislature should be 

13 elected each two years. This would ensure a continuity of 

14 experience that v7ould facilitate careful consideration of 

15 measures. Another major benefit, made vivid by the recent 
15 primary, as V7as clear when the ballot was so long that in 
17 some districts there was something like 80 names. 

19 You would only have then one-half of those 

19 running for the House of Delegates coming up every two year 

20 and -- 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard, may I interrupt? It 



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•^ seems to me that we perhaps ought to consider Recommenda- 

2 tion 4 before 3, because 3 has no pertinence if we don't 
~ accept 4. 

4 DR. BARD: That's right. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: At the present time, the Legis- 
Q lature is elected on a four-year basis and organized on a 
Y four-year basis. 

3 DR. BARD: That's correct, the two go together, 
g and actually four v7ould be written into Section 6, if we 

JO adopted it, and if you turn in your document to -- 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: V7ell, first, before you do that, 

12 this would be a motion to reconsider the action by which 

13 the Commission heretofore decided against having a provisioii 

14 for staggered terms for the Members of the Legislature. 
25 DR. BARD: Before I make this motion, I would 

Ig like to say that I believe firmly that in the case of these 

lY tv7o items, the same point that was made earlier about the 

13 fact that we do not have a complete body here would hold 

19 true in respect to these tv7o items. It was our purpose, 

20 the purpose of the Committee, to not necessarily move re- 

21 consideration in respect to each of these items, but to 



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point to the Committee that these were serious gaps, as we 
saw them, and in this case, I am not prepared to move, in 
terms of 3 or 4, but rather to point to the Committee as 
a whole that strong statements with reference to 3 and 4 
need to be made either as alternative statements or as 
recommendations for review to the Convention rather than 
to this body. 

THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Then, we'll go back 
again to Section 7. 

DR. BARD: Now, perhaps another Member of the 
Committee may choose to make a motion in this respect. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

MRS. BOTHE: Was there a vote on this? I don't 
recall when it v/as debated before. 

THE CHAIRMAN: There is no motion before the 
Commission. The question of staggered terms was rejected 
in June by a vote of 15 to six. It was not considered in 
July or August, It V7as rejected in September. I do not 
have the vote. 

DR. BARD: On the other one, Mr. Chairman, we 
never did have an extended debate on this -- 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go back to Section 7, be- 

2 fore we move on to the other point. 

3 DR. BARD: In going to Section 7, I would say 

4 that v;e have no other recommendation in this respect, un- 
g less a Member of this Commission feels that we ought to 

Q consider these two points together. We're merely pointing 

Y to the importance of calling these tvjo issues to the atten- 

Q tion of the Convention as a whole at this time. 
9 THE CHAIR14AN: Mr. Brooks corrects me, that the 

10 fourth point v;as not discussed in September. It was re- 

11 jected, as I indicated, by a vote of 15 to six, in June. 

12 All right, further consideration of Section 7, Dr. Bard? 
]^3 DR. BARD: I have no other point. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I would suggest, at the end of 
j5 the first line, after the word, convene, that we add the 

15 words, in regular session, because we in other Articles 

17 refer to special sessions and regular sessions and this 

18 would then identify this as the regular session. Would 

19 there be any objection? 

20 DR. BARD: I don't believe so. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection from anyone to 



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1 adding the v7ords,in regular session, at the end of the 

2 first line, so it will read, The General Assembly shall 
5 convene in regular sessions? If not, it is so ordered. 

4 Now, I have another question, Dr. Bard, two 

5 questions. Is it intended by the Committee that the provisc}) 

6 in the first sentence is a limitation on the Legislature 

7 to the extent that it can only extend its session once? 

8 DR. BARD: For a period not longer than 70 days, 

9 are you referring to that? 

10 THE CHAIRMAl^: Not longer than 30 days. 

11 DR. BARD: The second sentence, provided, how- 

12 ever, that by tv7o-thirds -- this was the feeling that I had[ 

13 yes. 

14 THE CHAIKI-IAN: Did you mean that it could act 

15 only once? In other words, if it extended its session for 

16 ten days, could it act a second time and have another ten 

17 days and a third time and have another ten days, so long 

18 as the total extensions did not exceed 30, or was it the 

19 intention that the Legislature could make an extension 

20 once and once only? 

21 DR. BARD: Well, my own thought would be the 



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former, that it could extend it to 30, if it felt the need 
and that, of course, goes back to our original belief of 
the Committee in a continuing session. However, there has 
been no interpretation, to my knowledge, by the Commission 
as a whole, Mr. Chairman. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think it's important to under- 
stand what the Commission desires on this point, because 
I think the language needs clarification and the Committee 
on Style ought to have the clarification. 

MR. SCANLAN: I think I was the author of that. 
I certainly intended it v7ould be for one period, v;hich 
would be no longer than 30 days, but it could be shorter. 

THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, if the Legislature 
approached the end of its 70-day session, it would have to 
make up its mind it was going to extend for ten or 20 or 
30 days and, V7hatever it did, it did once. 

MR. SCANLAN: Right. 

MR. MILLER: That would have to do with the 
regular session and not anything to do with this other 



provision, 



THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Any dissent from that 



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1 viev;? Then here is where I think the Committee on Style 

2 could improve the language to make it clear. 
jj Any further comment with reference to Section 7? 

4 If not, V7e move to Section 10. 

5 I DR. BARD: Section 10 took care of a requirement 
5 that V7e add, we make the revision and include, Follov/ing 

7 more than 90 days after the vacancy occurs. 

8 THE CllAIRl'IAN: I'm not sure your comment is en- 

9 tirely clear. Dr. Bard. I'm thinking of the record now and 

10 riot the Members present. 

11 DR. BARD: In our Sixth Report, Section 10 read 

12 as follows: Any vacancy in the General Assembly shall be 

13 filled by appointment by the Governor, provided, however, 

14 that a Party Member shall be succeeded by Members of the 

15 same Party and provided further that person so appointed 
25 shall serve only until the next biennial General Election, 

17 at which tim.e, any remaining portion of the unexpired term 

18 shall be filled by election; and there v;as the desire that 

19 we clarify at which point this would take place and then 

20 ^e added these words, at the recoirmendation of the Commission, 

21 Follov7ing more than 90 days after the vacancy occurs. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau. 

MR. MARTINEAU: Doctor, is it your thought that 
if there is an independent v7ho is to be replaced that the 
Governor could pick a person of any Party? 

DR. BARD: This v;as our Committee feeling, that 
the Governor had a perfect right to pick a person of any 
Party or an independent, if he so desired, if a vacancy by 
an independent occurred. 

MR. MARTINEAU: My recollection was, and it might 
be totally incorrect, that we voted last time to provide 
that the independent was to be succeeded by an independent. 
Maybe my recollection is wrong. 

DR. BARD: I don't think you are right on that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I won't be positive, but my 
recollection of the discussion was that if the vacancy oc- 
curred as a result of the resignation and death of a person 
who was a Member of a Party, he had to be succeeded by a 
Member of that Party, but I did not understand that the 
Governor would have to pick an independent to succeed an 
independent. Mr. Hoff? 

MR. HOFF: Did we not decide that the Members 



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1 would retain their Membership in the General Assembly until 

2 the beginning of the next session? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 

4 MR. HOFF: V/ell, this v;ould have the effect of 

5 terminating the term of the person appointed, let's say, in 

6 the third year of the term at the next General Election and 

7 not at the time when the other Member's term expired. 

8 THE CliAIRMAN: You are quite right. Do you 

9 follow his point. Dr. Bard? 

10 DR. BARD: Not fully, no. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: If V7e made an Amendment to 

12 similar language in another Section so that the terms of 

13 the Members of the Legislature did not expire V7ith the 

14 election of their successor, but continued until the con- 

15 vening of the next regular session, so that if a new Member 

16 is elected in November, he takes office in January, but 

17 the hold-overs carry on from November to January. 

18 DR. BARD: Right. 

19 THE CHAIRi'IAN: Mr. Hoff points out that with 

20 reference to this successor, we have not done that. You 

21 have used the language of the old Section and his term 



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would, therefore, expire with the election of his successor 


r' 


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and you v:ould have a gap. 




3 


MR. MILLER: I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that 




4 


that can be corrected, and it is a good point, by inserting 




5 


the third Wednesday of the January following. 




6 


THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think the desirable thing 




7 


would be to tie it in with the other Section and I v7ould 




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rather not try to do that right now, because I'm not sure 




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we'd get it right. 




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DR. BURDETTE: What we're trying to do is defeat 




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the will of the people. We can't quite hear. You are 




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talking about continuing the people who are appointed? 




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MR'. BROOKS: The people v;'ho are appointed not 




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by election, but on the third Wednesday of January -•- 




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DR. BURDETTE: You don't have appointments in th 


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House, but we do in the Senate and the rule of the Senate 


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is that the person take office upon election -- or the 


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term expires when the people express their will. Other- 




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wise, we don't have elective legislative bodies. We have 


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appointments . 




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THE CHAIRl^lAN: I think Dr. Burdette's point is 


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correct, in this Section there is a gap, because we have 
provided here that the person elected fills the unexpired 
portion of the term. So, his associates in the Legislature 
would take office immediately, Mr. Hoff. Are you satisfied 
Mr. Hoff? 

MR. HOFF: Yes, sir. 

THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any further questions 
or corranent on ten? Section 13. 

DR. BARD: Section 13 had been changed as fol- 
lows. If you keep your Sixth Report before you, you will 
note that. Each house shall appoint its own officers and 
determine its rules of procedure, and shall have power to 
compel the attendance and testimony of witnesses and the 
production of records and papers either before such house 
as a whole or before any committee thereof. 

Well, we're getting here, in Section 13, to our 
sixth point, the Legislature must have adequate subpoena 
powers and the v7hole question of subpoena is discussed here 
We v;ere asked to insert into this particular Section a 
safeguard. So, because I think it's so terribly important, 
Mr. Chairman, may I read the whole thing? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. This Is not a reconsidera- 

2 tion, because at the last meeting of the Commission further 

3 action on this question was deferred pending the prepara- 

4 tion of the memorandum dealing with the question. 

5 DR. BARD: V7e believe that this rewording will 

6 take care of both the caution that the Commission had given 

7 and at the same time our feeling that the Legislature shoulc^ 

8 have adequate subpoena powers and here is the rev7ording: 

9 Each house shall be the final judge of the qualifications 

10 and election of its members, as prescribed by the Consti- 

11 tution and the laws of the State. Each house shall appoint 

12 its own officers and determine its rules of procedure, whicl^ 

13 may permit its committees to meet betvjeen sittings of the 

14 General Assembly. Each house may exercise its power to com- 

15 pel the attendance and testimony of V7itnesses and the pro- 

16 duction of records and papers either before such house as a 

17 whole or before any committee thereof, provided that the 

18 General Assembly shall have by law -- and this is the part 

19 that you asked us to insert ~- protected rights of witnessejj, 

20 and their records and papers, 

21 Now, I will read the last portion, but this last 



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1 portion of the Section exists apart from our strong feeling 

2 with reference to adequate powers. 

3 Each house may punish a Member for disorderly or 
4: disrespectful behavior and with the consent of tv7o-thirds 

5 of its Members expel a Member. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, my recollection of 

7 the debate on this subject at the last Meeting V7as that the 

8 Commission suggested that the protection which V7e afforded 

9 was a protection in terms of a more than a majority vote 

10 before the subpoena power could be exercised, not only by a 

11 vote of the particular House exercising the subpoena pov7er. 

12 X think, as I recall it, I don't have the prior Report, thi^ 

13 language was substantial in the other Report, provided that 

14 the General Assembly shall have by lav7 protective rights 

15 of V7itnesses and their papers. Wasn't that in the earlier ••- 

16 DR. BARD: We didn't have it in the Sixth, but 

17 you are right, Judge, there was a substantial feeling 

18 among Commission Members that there ought to be an extra 

19 vote in this respect. 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: But the Committee has not so pro- 

21 vided. 



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1 DR. BARD: The Committee has not so provided be- 

2 cause we believe that in this respect there ought to be a 

3 reconsideration of that feeling. There was no vote, but a 

4 feeling, and we went back and considered your feelings and 

5 stated it thus. 

6 Now, if you believe that this extraordinary vote 

7 ought to be included, I might add here that our own Committee 

8 was divided with reference to whether we would go along 

9 with an extraordinary vote. 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: May I make a motion? 

11 THE CliAIriMAN: Just a second. 

12 - MR. MILLER: I'd like to clear a point. What we 

13 V7ere talking about was not the right to subpoena. I think 

14 it V7as conceded, but it was a question of punishing for 

15 contempt, that it v7ould require an extraordinary vote and 

16 we decided to leave that to law. 

17 THE CtlAIRMAN: I would like to state my recollec 

18 tion of the discussion and the action or lack of action, be ~ 

19 cause I think there V7as only one definitive action. 

20 There was considerable discussion over the ques- 

21 tion of whether, in the absence of any provision at all. 



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1 the Legislature had the subpoena power. Mr. Case wade the 

2 emphatic statement that he thought it did. I think Senator 

3 Hoff had a question in his mind as to whether the pov;er 
4- existed and as to v^hether the Legislative Council had the 

5 pov7er. 

6 In any event, the one definitive action that the 

7 Commission did take was to request that that point be re-^ 

8 served and that a memorandum be prepared on the power of 

9 the Legislature to make investigations, compel appearance 

10 of witnesses and so forth. 

11 There was discussion as to v/hether anything at 

12 all should be included in the Constitution, leaving it 

13 silent and leaving the inherent power, if it existed, 

14 to issue subpoenas, whether the power should be limited to 

15 the Legislature itself, as in a grand inquest, for instance, 

16 as is presently provided in the Constitution, V7hether the 

17 power should be exercisable by any Committee of the Legis- 

18 lature at any time or v/hether the power should be exercisabl^e 

19 by the Legislature or by Committees only in accordance with 

20 law and v;hether the power to issue subpoenas in any given 

21 case should require an extraordinary vote or, at the very 



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}_ least, if a witness refused to appear, whether the power 

2 to move to punish him for contempt should be by extraor- 

g dinary vote. 

4 There was no definitive action on any of those 

5 matters. The question v/as referred back to the Committee 
5 to report further and with a research memorandum. Now, 

7 you each should have before you a two-page, I think, re- 

8 search memorandum dealing v;ith this question. 

9 Now, Judge Adkins , you want to make a motion? 

10 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. I would like to propose 

11 that the exercise of the power of subpoena by either House 

12 of the General Assembly be done only after some extraor- 

13 dinary vote. 

14 MRS. BOTHE: I second it. 

25 MR. MILLER: You mean even if the witness is 

15 willing to come or are you talking nov7 about people who -- 

17 JUDGE ADKINS: I'm talking about the power to 

18 compel witnesses to appear and testify and produce records 

19 and the pox^er to punish for failure to do so, both. I'm 

20 i^ot talking about their willingness, no. I don*t think, 

21 if you are v;illing to go and testify, as most people are, 



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1 in matters in which they have personal interest, a subpoena 

2 is required. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me have a question or two in 

4 clarification of the motion, I take it, Judge Adkins , that 

5 your motion would not require that the Section be rephrased 
5 to meet your motion so as to prevent the Legislature from 

7 requiring the attendance of heads or persons in the Adminis 

8 trative Departments of the Government, as is provided for 

9 in the Executive Department draft or in the Finance Committe 

10 draft? 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: Certainly not. I would have 

12 thought that that is covered by other provisions of this 

13 document. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I would take it that implicit in 

15 your motion is the idea that specific action to authorize 
15 the issuance of the subpoena in any particular case must 

17 be taken and by extraordinary vote? In other words, you 

18 are not suggesting that the Legislature could by an extra- 

19 ordinary vote pass a general law applicable' generally in 

20 the future? 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: That's exactly right. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Is that the understancling of the 
seconder, also? 

MR. BOTHE: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

MR. SCANLAN: I have a question. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let him speak as to his motion 



first. 



JUDGE ADKINS: I don't care to labor v/hat I 



consider to be the logic of the situation, because my ov;n 
recollection is it was debated pretty much at the last 
hearing. I do feel that if this power extends such power, 
frankly, I don't believe the memorandum says that, I think 
there should be a limitation on the inherent power. I 
think this is different from the investigations carried on 
by the Houses in Congress and I think it could be an ex- 
ceedingly dangerous power. It has not, to my limited 
knowledge, been exercised in Maryland, but I think the 
Legislature has on the v7hole been able to get such informa- 
tion as it needed to this point. I don't think it need be 
used except under extreme conditions, as I proposed. 
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: This is a question. Dogs Judge 

2 Adkins ' motion mean that the Legislature by extraordinary 
5 vote can compel the attendance of witnesses before it, and 

4 only the Legislature, or does it mean the Legislature by 

5 an extraordinary vote can compel a witness to appear before 

6 one of its Committees? I don't think the motion is clear. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: I think the motion is not clear. 

8 I would accept the latter, if by extraordinary vote in a 

9 specific matter, the production of testimony or the produc- 

10 tion of documents could be made either before the Legislatui 

11 or any House thereof or any duly constituted Committee 

12 thereof. I would concede to that extent. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond? 

14 MR. BOND: I would like to ask Judge Adkins 

15 does his motion not take away from the General Assembly 
15 certain powers which it has exercised under Article III, 

17 Section 24, set forth on Page 22 of the Constitution? 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: Is that the grand inquest? 

19 MR. BOND: No, sir, it goes beyond the grand in- 

20 quest. It sets up a joint comjTiittee with a power of sub- 

21 poena. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 

2 MR. MILLER; I still think what Judge Adkins has 

3 in mind is the power to compel attendance. Now, it would 

4 certainly have for any Legislative Committee, if they 

5 served a subpoena on somebody and had to have a two- thirds 
5 vote, it might be all right to require a two-thirds vote 

7 to compel attendance, but there are hundreds of cases in 

8 other places v;here a witness is summoned by a Legislative 

9 body and it gives him an excuse to go when, otherwise, if 

10 it's a question of his having to volunteer, he might be em- 

11 barrassed or he might lose his job. 

12 ' Nov7, I don't see any possible reason why the 

13 power to subpoena should require a two- thirds vote. 

14 Now, to compel attendance, V7hat I think Judge 
]^5 Adkins is talking about, that's an entirely different 

15 proposition and an extraordinary vote Bright be required, 

17 but certainly you needn't require an extraordinary vote 

18 or require a Committee to ask some official of some company 

19 to come and tell them something, but he would come, and he 

20 doesn't want to lose his job. Now, then, if the management 

21 says, You must refuse to go, then you could have your 



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1 extraordinary vote, but it seems to me to be awfully cumber 

2 some to require an extraordinary vote to even give them 

3 the power to issue the subpoena. 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: May I answer that? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a question, yes. Go ahead. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS; I don't understand that there 

7 would be anything inherently illegal in any Committee 

8 Chairman v^riting to John Jones and saying, V7e request that 

9 you appear and testify; that you certainly would not have 

10 to have a two-thirds vote on that. 

11 MR. MILLER: Yes, but if you are working for X 

12 Company and they don't want to have anything said about it 

13 and you are requested to come, the answer is. We V7ill deny 

14 the request. If you are subpoenaed, you have an excuse to 

15 go, unless you V7ant to exercise some special right and 

16 then you can V7rite back and say, I refuse to come and then 

17 you would have this procedure, but otherwise, you oughtn't 

18 to tie it up. 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: To me, the power of subpoena is 

20 the pov7er to enforce attendance. If that is not the 

21 meaning of the word, I would agree with Congressman Miller 



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1 But I don't agree," unless it carries the connotation of the 

2 force, subpoena doesn't mean much. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

4 MRS BOTHE: My recollection is similar to that 

5 of Judge Adkins , as to the action in the September, I belie\ 

6 Meeting, in V7hich I distinctly recall, and perhaps incor- 

7 rectly, that a vote was taken by the Commission upon a 

8 motion similar to that which Judge Adkins just made and was 

9 accepted by a majority of the Commission. I think this is 

10 a question of reconsideration. 

11 MR. ADKINS: That's my recollection. 

12 HR. SAYRE: It's a matter of accepting nev7 

13 language, as I understand it. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I have no vzay to establish by the 

15 record, unless we read the transcript. We'll try to do 

16 that. My recollection is there was no vote on this ques- 

17 tion, that it was re-committed to the Committee. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: I protest, Mr. Chairman, that with- 

19 out any record before the group, that a Committee, I believ^, 

20 is just running away with interpretation. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe, I can only answer 



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1 you by saying that" when we don't have a V7ritten record of 

2 the previous meeting, we don't stop. We have to rely on the 

3 recollection of the Chairman, and if you disagree with it, 

4 we'll submit it to the Commission. 

5 MRS. BOTHE: I propose that the matter be de- 

6 ferred until the action of the Commission can be establishec 

7 I don't feel this is a proper proceeding. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this a motion? 

9 MRS. BOTHE: I don't know that a motion is in 

10 order. I'm appealing to the Chair. 

11 THE CHAIRl^IAN: We can't possibly defer further 

12 action on this and then try to check the record. We v;on't 

13 move. We haven't got the time. We must move. 

14 DR. BARD: Mr. Chairman, may I add that among 

15 the Committee Members themselves there V7as a diverse opinioiji 

16 as to the validity of the motion Judge Adkins has made. In 

17 this area, we did not have complete unanimity with regard 

18 to every aspect of our points. Our major point was we 

19 wanted to make certain this power was there and there would 

20 be the caution which the Commission made clear and here I 

21 think there is unanimity. 



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We did see a responsibility to insert in here 
some cautions. Now, we belive we have them. If you think 
we don't have them, then I think this motion is very m.uch 
in order, 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Delia? 

MR. BELLA: Mr. Chairman, I think we're arguing 
about something that to some degree is insignificant, al- 
though it has som^e importance. The Legislature itself 
generally, when they want to have a hearing on any measure, 
whether it's a m.easure pertaining to one of the State 
Departments or a general measure, whatever it may be, if 
they feel they need witnesses to testify, they generally 
send a request to those people who may be vitally involved 
and ask them to come down. If they come dov7n, that's good, 
but if they don't come down, the Legislature passes what 
they feel in their view is benifical legislation. I don't 
think they have any problem, in my 16 years fooling around 
with the Legislature, in getting people to come down, be- 
cause the people only come down in their own personal .in- 
terests or the interests of the people or company theyrepre 
sent. 



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1 I think the essence here is to more or less give 

2 authority to a Committee or Legislature, something which 

3 they probably have not had before as a safeguard measure 

4 in the event they may want to use the subpoena power, but 

5 to my knowledge, they have never had any problem getting 

6 witnesses before. 

7 THE CHAIKMAN: Mr. Bond, I don't think your 

8 question has been answered. 

9 MR, BOND: I think I can renev; it in a more 

10 pointed fashion, if I may. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

12 ' MR. BOND: At Page 22, Section 24 of Article 

13 III says, V7ith a view to the more certain prevention, or 

14 correction of the abuses in the expenditures of the money 

15 of the State, the General Assembly shall create, at every 

16 session thereof. Delegates, who shall have power to send 

17 for persons, and examine them on oath, and call for Public, 

18 or Official Papers and Records. 

19 My question is does Judge Adkins ' motion do av;ay 

20 with this power V7hich is in the existing Constitution? 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: I would assume that it is 



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1 substituted for that power. 

2 THE CHAIRI'IAN: I would suggest to you that the 

3 pov7er in the Constitution that you just read is not the un- 

4 limited power that the Commission is advocating. This is 

5 limited to an investigation with reference to expenditures 

6 by the State Government and not general investigative 

7 matters. So that the only power that exists in the present 

8 Constitution which gives broad investigative powers is the 

9 grand inquest. Mr. Scanlan? 

10 MR, SCANLAN: I have another question of Judge 

11 Adkins about his motion, and that's V7hat concerns me. 

12 VJe ' re talking about language, but I don't know what the 

13 language is exactly and V7here it fits in here. My question 

14 is does your motion tend to mean that if the Senate v;ants 

15 to authorize one of its Committees to compel testimony, the 

16 Senate by an extraordinary majority must do so, or the ~ 

17 v7hole General Assembly must do so? 

18 JUDGE ADKINS: The Senate must do so. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: 1 wish we had the precise language 

20 and I V7ish we had where it would appear in the Section. I 

21 think I could respond or agree with it somewhat more 



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1 intelligently. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: In defense of that rather oblique 

3 criticism of my motion, I thought this had been referred 

4 back to the Committee for such language and that's the 

5 reason I don't have it before me. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Bear with me for just a moment, 

7 please. 

8 A transcript is here and this discussion goes 

9 over numerous pages. I'll try to state it as simply as I 

10 can. There v/as a motion by Mrs. Bothe that the provision 

11 be rewritten so as to require -- as I stated, the motion 

12 V7hen put to a vote is this: The question arises on the 

13 motion that the Section be so drafted as to impose limita- 

14 tion on either the granted or inherent power of the Legis- 

15 lature to require production of witnesses and records by 

16 requiring a two-thirds vote of the appropriate House 

17 authorized to compel the attendance of a v;itness against 

18 his will before the Legislature or any Legislative 

19 Committee or the production of books and records. That 

20 motion lost six to 13. 

21 There was then a motion to make the sam^e 



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1 provision, except by a majority vote instead of a two-thirds 

2 vote. That motion V7as carried 13 to six. 
5 There was then a motion to reconsider the last 
4r motion. It was adopted and the motion was reconsidered. 

5 There was then a motion to substitute for that motion a 

6 motion to refer the matter back to the Committee for further 

7 study. That V7as passed by acclamation. 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, may I now withdraw 

9 my motion and make a new one? 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir, with the consent of 

11 your seconder. 

12 MRS. BOTHE: I consent. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: May I propose an Amendment to 

14 Section 13, as contained in the Legislative Report of the 

15 Committee dated October 14th, v/hich V7ill cause the last 

16 sentence of that Section to read as follows: Each house may 

17 exercise power to compel the attendance of testim.ony of wit- 

18 nesses and the production of records and papers, and herein 

19 insert the words. Germane to legislation pending either be- 

20 fore such House as a whole or before any Committee thereof, 

21 provided that the General Assembly shall have by law 



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1 protected rights of V7itnesses and their records and papers, 

2 and here is new language, provided such action shall be 

3 taken by two-thirds vote of the House exercising the power. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Judge Adkins , would you be willing 

5 to submit tV7o separate motions, divide your motion, and 

6 have the first part, Other than the tv70- thirds vote, in one 

7 motion and then the last phrase requiring a two- thirds vote 

8 in the second motion? I say that because I rather suspect 

9 that there are those who would favor some of the additions 

10 you make. 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: You think I've got a better 

12 chance to get half. All right. 

13 MRS. BOTHE: I second it. 

14 MR. MILLER: May I ask a question? Does that 

15 say to compel rather than subpoena? 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: It says power to compel testimony 

17 of witnesses . 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I couldn't take it dov7n as quickljr 

19 as you read it. 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: I struck out the v7ord , its, pov^er 

21 to compel testimony of witnesses and the production of 



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1 records and papers, and here I inserted the words, Gcnriane 

2 to legislation pending either before such House as a whole 

3 or before any Committee thereof. That would be the sub- 

4 stance of my first Amendment. 

5 MR. SYKES: Could I ask a question on that? 

6 THE CHAIRiMAN: The only insert, then, is the 

7 phrase, Germane to legislation pending, is that correct? 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: I'm sorry, I was answering a 

9 question. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: The only issue is the question, 

11 Germane to legislation pending? 

12 ' JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. Mr. Sykes seems to make 

13 an appropriate suggestion, and that is we strike out the 

14 word, exercise. 

15 MR. SYKES: In other words, Each House may com- 

16 pel. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, the motion is to amend 

18 the next to last sentence of this section by deleting the 

19 phrase, Exercise its power to, and in the third line of 

20 the sentence, after the v7ords , Records and papers, insert 

21 the words, Germane to legislation pending. 



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Does the Committee Chairman want to comment? 

DR. BARD: My only comment would be I think our 
Committee would accept this in full. I second the motion. 

MR. SCANLAN: I'm not sure your entire Committee 
would accept it. 

DR. BARD: Well, I would. 

MR. SCANLAN: I want to say if we pass this, we 
are constitutionally curtailing the investigative pov.'er, 
because 1 think the discussions discussing the question of 
germaneness don't put germaneness on a more narrow basis as 
in this case here, if the Amendment passes. In other words 
if the subject matter that the Legislature is investigating 
could reasonably be thought one that could give rise to 
legislation, I don't think any Court has ever imposed the 
requirement that there be pending at the time a specific 
piece of legislation. 

Now, I know and I'm aware of the abuses of the 
legislative investigatory power, not only on the Federal 
level, but on the State level, and I'm in general sympathy , 
with an attempt to prevent that. I think there is enough 
protection in the due process clause of the First 



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1 Amendment and, indeed, what the Commission has provided 

2 here, shall by law protect the rights of witnesses. If 

3 the General Assembly wants to pass a statute that defines 
4- gemianeness more narrowly than is constitutionally under- 

5 stood, that is perfectly all right with me, but I don't 

6 think we should tie the Legislature's hands in advance in 

7 the Constitution. I don't think there is any dispute that 

8 we're doing that. 

9 Even if you concede that the Legislature has 

10 the inherent power to investigate, and we have nothing else 

11 in there and they attempt to subpoena somebody and the 

12 fellow raises the defense there is no legislation pending, 

13 nevertheless, the Legislature has embarked on an investiga- 

14 tion in an area that could give rise to legislation, say 

15 like in the savings and loan field, no Court would sustain 

16 that defense, but if this provision is in the Constitution, 

17 he has a better defense. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I remember we put in the v;ords , 

19 exercise its pov7er, in order that V7e indicate we recognize 

20 its inherent power and, by taking them out, we're reversing 

21 what we did at that time. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are you 

2 ready for the question? Before you close, Judge Adkins , 

3 I would like to make this coiranent, as to my own position. 
4r I am troubled by the point made by Mr. Scanlan, 

5 because I think that this power is more likely to be exer- 

6 cised in connection with investigations that may be desired 

7 with a view to considering vjhether legislation is or is 

8 not necessary rather than with pending legislation. I am 

9 thinking, for instance, of the illustration that Mr. Case 

10 gave at the last meeting with reference to the savings and 

11 loan association problems, that there is no legislation 

12 pending and yet the problem is certainly one v^hich the 

13 Legislature should have informed itself about before 

14 passing legislation. 

15 However, I think that there ought to be some- 

16 thing in the Constitution making it clear that the rights 

17 of the individual to due process, fair and just treatment, 

18 or whatever phrase you may V7ant to use, is protected and I 

19 would rather see that protected by the Courts than to try 

20 to work out any precise language that v7ould put limits on 

21 it, because I'm afraid that the limits wouldn't give you 



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1 the protection you want. 

2 For instance, in the memorandum on Page 2, there 

3 are a number of phrases that give some protection, none of 

4 which are quite what I had in mind. The closest is in 3 , 

5 which says. The right of all persons to fair and just 

6 treatment in the course of legislative and executive in- 

7 vestigation shall not be infringed. I would favor the addi 

8 tion of a phrase like that to this clause, rather than what 

9 I think is really less protection, the phrase, Germane 

10 to legislation pending. 

11 Judge Adk]-ns? 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: I would simply like to say that 

13 the purpose 'of my proposal here is precisely to protect 

14 against v.'hat I consider to be the potential abuse that Mr. 

15 Scanlan has insisted should be the right of the Legislature 

16 So, we have a direct confrontation on that point. 

17 I think, under normal circumstances, the 

18 Legislature of Maryland has not engaged too frequently in 

19 investigations prior to the introduction of legislation. 

20 Normally speaking, hearings and investigations are carried 

21 out after some proposed legislation has been produced. 



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I think this is different than the pov7er inherenlp 
in the Congress. I think it's much more important for the 
Congress to have this power, because generally speaking 
the powers with which they deal are much broader. They 
require a larger amassing of materials than I believe the 
matters in which Legislatures deal do. I think, without 
some limitation such as this, fishing expeditions would be 
inevitable, they could be using them for other purposes. 

I don't disagree with what the Chairman says 
about the right of due process and I'm not against leaving 
it with the Courts, but I think this would be helpful. 

THE CHAIRMAN: May I ask one question. I agree 
with your observation that the pov:er to investigate before 
the legislation has not been exercised before the legisla- 
tion, but has this not become an accepted exercise or 
function by the Legislative Council, as distinguished from 
the Legislative Committee? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I'm not as familiar with the 
Legislative Council, but I'm sure it has in some instances. 

THE CHAIPvMAN: Ready for question? The questior 
arises to amend the motion in the second from last sentence 



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in Section 13, so as to delete the words, Exercise its 
power, in the first line of the sentence and after the 
words, Records and papers, add the phrase, in the third 
line of the sentence, add the phrase, Germane to legisla- 
tion pending. The first part of the sentence would then 
read. Each house may compel the attendance and testimony 
of witnesses and the production of records and papers 
germane to legislation pending either before such House as 
a whole or before any Committee thereof. 

Are you ready for the question? All those in 
favor of the motion signify by a show of hands. Contrary? 
The motion is lost four to 12. 



Judge Adkins , do you want to make another 



motion? 



JUDGE ADKINS: I propose, sir, there be a new 
phrase to the same sentence which reads, following the 
words. Records and papers, insert a com.ma and state. And 
provided such action shall be taken by a two-thirds vote 
of the House exercising the pov.'er. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: I second it. 



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THE CHAIRMAN 



JUDGE ADKINS 



THE CHAIRMAN 



Judge Adkins? 
I have no further comment. 
Mr. Scanlan. 



MR. SCANLAN: I want to say at this time, it's 
a pleasure to agree V7ith Judge Adkins. 

JUDGE ADKINS: Thank you. Your help is welcome. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comments? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, would it be in 
order nov?, since there is a word here, to use the language 
of lav7yers , I want to know if the v;ord, production, is a 
v;ord of art, because I think of production as manufacture. 

THE CHAIPJ^AN: With lawyers in recent years, it 
is indeed a word of art. 

MR. FREEDLANDER: I just wondered whether it 
would be better to use the v7ord, submission, because I 
think it means something other than production, as in 
creating and producing. 

THE CHAIRl-lAN: I think it's accurate and it does 
have a meaning among lawyers to produce records. 

I wonder if we could take a break at this time? 

(There \ms a short recess.) 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion before you is to add a 

2 clause at the end of the sentence, And provided such action 

3 shall be taken by a two-thirds vote of the House exercising 

4 such power. Mrs. Freedlander, I think you were wanting to 

5 speak on that? Somebody over here had their hand up. 

6 MR, BOND: I changed my mind. 

7 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I seconded it. 

8 THE CHAIR>1AN: Any discussion? Mr. Martineau. 

9 MR. MARTINEAU: I'd like to ask Judge Adkins, 

10 does this mean, getting back to this discussion of the 

11 difference between a subpoena and compelling, that before 

12 the Committee could issue a summons, it would have to get 

13 the approval, or are you thinking that there is some 

14 authority of distinction? Actually, I would be thinking 

15 they could issue the summons and move along without getting 

16 the approval of anybody, but it's only a question of getting 

17 an order that they will be held in comtempt if they fail 

18 to comply. 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: I'm not sure if that question 

20 wouldn't more properly be referred to the Committee. My 

21 interpretation would be that there would be nothing to 



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prevent them from writing a letter or serving a document 
which is purported to be a subpoena or summons or notice 
of intent or anything you choose to call it, without getting 
this vote. The significance of this would mean that they 
could not compel or im.pose sanctions for failing to comply 
until such time as they have gone through this procedure. 
That would be my concept. 

MR. MILLER: Could I have the language again? 

JUDGE ADKINS: It's basically your language, 
except I have added the words, And provided such action 
shall be taken by tv7o-thirds vote of the House exercising 
the power. 

MR. MILLER: Could you put in. Prosecution for 
contempt hereunder, or something like that, so that it 
doesn't limit the power to issue ordinary, everyday sub- 
poenas? It's only V7hen som.ebody refuses -- 

MR. MARTINEAU: It's citing for contempt is 
really what you are talking about, rather than issuing an 
order compelling the man to appear. 

MR. MILLER: It seems to me it simplifies it 
and you v7ouldn't V7ant to have a person go because they are 



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1 requested. As we pointed out several times, there are a 

2 lot of witnesses that don't want to go and talk about their 

3 friends. If they just say, Well, he's volunteered, but a 

4 subpoena v;ould get nine out of ten people in there. But 

5 it's the prosecution for contempt. On the Federal level, 

6 there isn't any argument about a subpoena, that before £ 

7 person can be prosecuted, it requires a majority vote of 

8 the House or Senate, as the case may be, and it seems to 

9 me that's what we're driving at. 

10 We're not trying to hamper them. We want to 

11 protect people and, if they think they have a good reason, 

12 they refuse and then it requires a vote of the body to 

13 institute punishment or a contempt decision. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Judge Adkins , do you want to 

15 make any change in your language? 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: Well, I recognize the problem, bu 

17 beingthe author of only the concluding paragraph, I m a 

i 

18 little at a loss to know V7hat to do about it. I would 

19 suggest you refer that to the Committee adopting it. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hoff? 

21 MR. HOFF: I would think relating this only to 



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contempt is creating a rather awkward situation. A man may 
be harassed by the Legislature by what he may rightfully 
feel is an infringement upon his private rights or private 
matters and if he is told to come and fails to come, he 
doesn't know whether he's going to be held for contempt or 
not. 

I think that the language proposed by Judge 
Adkins is more protective of the individual than having him 
simply X7ait and see V7hether he's going to be held in con- 
tempt by failing to appear. 

THE CHAIRI^IAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Sykes 
MR. SYKES: I have a suggestion that Judge 
Adkins may consider, that might do v;hat everybody here has 
been talking about, and that v/ould be the Section would reac 
Each house may provide for the issuance of a subpoena for 
the attendance and testimony of v^itnesses and the productior 
of records and papers and so on, down through the end of 
that sentence, and then the follov7ing sentence would be 
added, A witness shall not be in contempt for failure to 
testify or produce records unless specifically directed to 
do so by a two-thirds vote of the House concerned. 



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1 Would that satisfy it? That would make the 

2 distinction betv7een the subpoena power, that is, the power 

3 to issue document and the sanction and it would also re- 

4 quire that the sanction be imposed specifically and not 

5 generally. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: I'm not sure that quite satisfies 

7 my thinking in the matter, for this reason. A reputable 

8 citizen directed to produce records can be substantially 

9 harmed by the failure to produce those records simply by 

10 virtue of the publicity of having failed to comply V7ith a 

11 subpoena of the General Assembly, even though he may not 

12 be punished for contempt. It's not alone the power to 

13 punish for contempt, but it's the power to subject to 

14 ridicule or exposure is what I'm concerned about. 

15 It seems to me the issue of what purports to be 

16 a General Assembly subpoena, even without the power to 

17 punish for contempt, should itself be subject to some 

18 restraint. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Judge Adkins , could I suggest the 

20 possibility, not language, that might meet some of the ob- 

21 jections and also your point. To provide that either 



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2 compelling the production of documents or the attendance of 

2 a V7itness in a specific instance could be compelled by 

« tv7o-thirds vote of the House or could be done generally 

4. pursuant to a law passed by such an extraordinary vote? 
g What I am thinking is this would enable the 

Q Legislature, for instance, to authorize the Legislative 

Y Council to conduct certain investigations and issue sub- 

Q poenas , but they would have to have a tv;o-thirds vote or 

9 vjhatever the majority requisite extraordinary vote V7as , in 

10 order to provide generally for it. 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: I would not agree with that, Mr. 

12 Chairman. I think the protection is the protection of re- 

13 quiring the General Assembly to direct John Jones to appear 
1^ and testify. A direction by two-thirds vote to authorize 
15 the Legislative Council to issue subpoenas in a given area 
Ig would not be the Constitutional protection that I v7ould 

irjr like to see. 

IQ THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are you 

19 ready for the question? The question arises on the motion 

20 to amend the next to last sentence of Section 13 by adding 

21 at the end of the sentence this phrase. And provided such 



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1 action shall be taken by a two-thirds vote of the House 

2 exercising such power. 

3 All those in favor signify by a show of hands. 

4 Contrary? The motion is carried, 11 to five. 

5 Now, Judge Adkins , you have another motion on 

6 the same subject. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: I have one more and I'll quit. 

8 I would propose a new sentence be added immediately pre- 

9 ceding the last sentence of the paragraph and following 

10 the Amendment which V7e have just made vjhich reads as fol- 

11 lov;s : The right of all persons to fair and just treatment 

12 in the course of Legislative and Executive investigations 

13 shall not be 'infringed. 

14 MR. BOND: I second it. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? Mrs. 

16 Freedlander? 

17 MRS. FREEDMNDER: Do we not already have such 

18 protection in the Declaration of Rights, as adopted? 

19 THE CHAIRt'IAN: I would answer, if you have a 

20 provision in the Constitution in this paragraph conferring 

21 an express pov7er, you would avoid -- to compel attendance 



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and testimony -- you would avoid any possibility as to whic 
was paramount, by the addition of some such phrase as this. 
Mr. Scanlan? 

MR. SCANLAN: Since the language seems to be 
taken from a similar provision, the Alaska Constitution, in 
going to our memorandum writer, I wonder if anyone is in a 
position to state whether that Section of the Alaska Con- 
stitution has ever been construed in any reported case, if 
anyone knows? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I certainly do not. You are quit 
right, I picked it out of the memorandum, 

MR. BROOKS: I can*t say, but I guess probably 
not. It's unlikely, since it is such a new Constitution. 

THE CHAIR14AN : Any further discussion? Are you 
ready for the question? 

The question arises on the motion to add a nev? 
sentence before the last sentence of this Section reading, 
The right of all persons to fair and just treatment in the 
course of Legislative and Executive investigation shall 
not be infringed. All those in favor please signify by 
saying aye. Contrary, no. The ayes have it and it is so 



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1 ordered. 

2 Any further motion, Judge Adkins? 

3 JUDGE ADKINS: No further motions, Mr. Chairman. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know what the score is? 
g It's perhaps three out of four. Dr. Bard? 
Q DR. BARD: We now -- 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: You may change it at the next 

Q meeting, however. 
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions with 

10 reference to this Section? 

11 DR. BARD: We haven't gotten to the last sentence. 

12 We V7ere going to deal with that separately. 

13 MR. MARTINEAU: I have a question about the 

14 previous sentence. 

15 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I have a question, also. 
15 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, Mr. Martineau. 

17 MR. MARTINEAU: I wonder about the use of the 

18 word, sitting -- 

19 MRS. FREEDLANDER: That's exactly my question. 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: The top line -- 

21 DR. BARD: To meet betv7een sittings. 



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MR. MARTINEAU: I think it should be really, 
sessions. I don't know that there is anything that is 
called a sitting at -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection to 
changing sitting to session? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: I have a question applicable 
to the same point. The rules of the House of Delegates 
and the Senate of the State of Maryland as they state now 
already state this as part of the rules , thatbetween session 
that between regular sessions Committees meet. I'm won- 
dering V7hy it's necessary to put it in the Constitution? 
In other words, that V7hole phrase, it seems to me, is un- 
necessary, if the rules of the House of Delegates indicate 



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it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

DR. BARD: We did this at the behest of the 
Commission. If you remember, we had quite a discussion on 
this point and the Commission made it very clear that they 
felt it was necessary to do so. 

MR. MILLER: The reason for that is that having 
changed the recommendation about continuing sessions, it 



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1 seems that it might be necessary, to permit official 

2 meetings of the Committees, it would have to be authorized 

3 here, as long as we have not provided for it. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe there is a very, very 

5 different reason. I do not believe that Committees of the 

6 Legislature now meet betv;een sessions except the Legislativ(j: 

7 Council and the Legislative Council is provided for by law. 

8 This v7ould permit each House, by its rules and 

9 not by lav7, to provide for sessions of its Committees. 

10 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I thought the word , sittings , 

11 here meant in regular sessions. Between its meetings the 

12 Committees -- 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I believe it's intended to 

14 mean sessions. 

15 MR. MARTINEAU: That's why I raised the point. 

16 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Thank you. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 

18 I must express some concern, as a matter of 

19 drafting here, because I think that we end up with this 

20 next to the last sentence in quite a hodgepodge and I do 

21 not think that it is merely a m.atter for the Style Corrmitte 



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I assume that what is intended here or at least what this 
sentence as drafted means to me is that notwithstanding 
the exercise by either House of the Legislature by a two- 
thirds vote of the power to compel the attendance of v;it- 
nesses and the production of documents, it will be a nullit 
unless the Legislature has previously passed some lav7, 
general law, providing for the protection of rights of 
witnesses and their records and papers. 

Nov7, if that is the intention of the Commission, 
well and good. If it is not, then it seems to me that the 
existing language needs substantial clarification. Judge 
Adkins is the mover of the other motions. Let me ask you 
first if that V7as your intention? In other v7ords, that in 
any given instance, even though tv7o- thirds of either House 
or of both Houses seek to compel by resolution John Jones 
to appear before a specific Committee on a particular day, 
the action will be a nullity unless by law theretofore 
passed there is some provision for the protection of such 
a person appearing before such a Committee. 

JUDGE ADKINS: Well, I don't understand that the 
protection needs to extend to the protection of the 



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1 individual summoned to be a general protective law. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, yes, I meant that, protection 

3 of witnesses appearing. 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 

5 THE CHAIRl'lAN: If there is no general law, then 

6 the Legislature cannot even by two-thirds vote compel 

7 issuance of -- 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: I have not concentrated on that 

9 provision, Mr. Chairman. My offhanded opinion is there is 

10 no objection to it, but I don't feel strongly on the matter 

11 THE CHAIRl^lAN: Is there any dissent from that 

12 understanding? 

13 MR. MILLER: You think the Constitutional 

14 guarantees wouldn't take care of that? 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you are just asking me a 

16 question and I'm uncertain. To answer you personally, I 

17 would perhaps think it was, but that would leave it to the 

18 Courts and Judge Adkins had indicated earlier he didn't 

19 want to leave it to the Courts. My problem- here is one of 

20 language. I just want to be sure that V7hen the Committee cki 

21 Style rephrases this sentence, they do not change the 



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1 meaning. 

2 . As I understand it, and if there is any dissent, 
5 I would like to have it made known, in order for there to 
^ be action to compel the attendance of a witness before 

5 either House or a Committee, two things are requisite. 

6 First, there must be a general law protecting the rights 

7 of witnesses appearing before such a Committee. Secondly, 

8 there must be a resolution compelling the attendance of 

9 that particular witness before that particular Committee 
passed by a two-thirds vote. Mr. Bond? 

11 MR. BOND: Mr. Chairman, I think I do disagree 

l^ when you use the phrase, Such a Committee. 1 think the 

13 general law v7ould apply to all Committees of each House. 
14: THE CHAIRMAN: I mean that. 

15 MR. MILLER: Does the Chair think that these 

16 words absolutely mean nothing, providing the General Assemb|Ly 

17 shall have by law protective rights? 

18 THE CHAIRI'lAN: I think they mean a great deal. 

19 That's my point. 

20 MR. MILLER: What more v7ould what you say mean? 

21 JUDGE ADKINS : Mr. Chairmian would prefer not to 

J — 



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1 have those words in, if I sense -- 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not expressing any opinion at 

3 the moment. All I'm anxious to do is to make sure that the 

4 intention of the Commission is expressed in words, and I am 

5 saying that as this is now amended and read, in order to 

6 compel the attendance of witnesses before Legislative Com- 

7 mittees, two things are necessary, one, the Legislature mus 

8 have passed and the Governor signed a law providing for the 

9 protection of all witnesses generally appearing before the 

10 Legislature or Legislative Committees. If that has been 

11 done, then you must have a tv7o- thirds vote to compel John 

12 Jones to appear before a particular Committee. 

13 MR. MILLER: I think that's what we voted on. 

14 THE CHAIRI<1AN: All right, there is no dissent. 

15 Mr. Scanlan? 

16 MR. SCANLAN: I was going to say that was the 

17 precise intention of the Committee in drafting that 

18 language. Of course, at the time, we did not have in the 

19 tv7o protections that have been added today, namely, the 

20 protection raised in Judge Adkins ' second motion, two- 

21 thirds vote, and secondly, the further Constitutional 



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protections embraced in his third motion. 

THE CHAIRMAN: All right. There is no dissent 
and I think it's clear and Dr. Burdette and his Committee 
can wrestle with the problem from there on. 

JUDGE ADKINS: May T just make one further 
comment for the record. It appears to me on a close re- 
reading of this that there may be some question as to 
whether or not the language V7hich I proposed in the Second 
Amendment is clearly indicating that the vote has to be a 
precise vote or a vote on the precise subpoena sought for 
issue. I'm perfectly willing to leave that to the Committee 
on Style without taking further time of the Commission, but 
I want it perfectly clear that is the intent of the mover 
and also the intent of the Commission. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is the intent of the Commis- 
sion, as I understood it. Now, any other comment with 
reference to 13? 



DR. BARD: No other changes with reference to 



Section 13. 



THE CHAIRMAN: Section 15. 



DR. BARD: Now, with reference to Section 15, 



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, Each House shall keep a public journal of its proceedings 
g and cause the same to be published. No bill shall become a 

law unless it be passed in each House by a majority of the 

Members of that House. 

I want to call your attention to the fact that 
g in our memorandum, and this is the last point that we'd like 
„ to call to your attention, we still believe, and I'm not 
o sure we're ready to set forth a proposal, but we still be- 
Q lieve that we ought to call before the attention of the 



10 



Convention certainly the fact that the vote for passage of 

-y-y the bill or resolution should be by a majority of those 

22 present, which is the current practice in Congress, and not 

,, a Constitutional majority. 

, . THE CHAIRMAN: That v7ould mean a reconsideration 

-J. of the previous Section. 

^^ DR. BARD: I'm not ready to so move, not at this 

,„ time, no. In addition to that, the change that we were 

,p asked to make is the last sentence in Section 15, On all 

,q final actions, the yea and nay votes shall be recorded in 



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the Journal of each House. This was really a procedural 



22 change. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Any comment? Any question? 

2 Mr. Miller. 

2j MR. MILLER: Not a comment or question. I would 

4 like to make a motion that this record that V7e're sub- 

g mitting as alternate plans, that an alternate plan be filed 

Q in a sort of orative report that a simple vote of a majorit 

7 present ought to be enough to enact a law. I think there's 

9 a good deal of reason for not requiring, on a lot of issues 

9 that a majority of all the Members and -- 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller, this would not re- 

11 quire an alternate to be phrased, inasmuch as the change 

12 is simple. It's just a majority of those present instead 

13 of a majority of those elected -- 

14 MR. MILLER: Just a note made that there is a 

15 feeling of some Members. 
15 THE CHAIRMAN: The report will certainly indi- 

17 cate there were pros and cons and indicate there V7as a 

18 substantial feeling by those present. Any further dis- 

19 cussion on the question? 

20 Section 16. 

21 DR. BARD: The new Section there -- the Sixth 



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1 Draft was changed as follov;s: The first sentence is exactly 

2 the same. The second sentence, All impeachments shall be 

3 tried by the Senate, but no person shall be convicted 

4: without the concurrence of two-thirds of all the Senators. 

5 Now, we were asked to add this point: Judgment 

6 shall be removal from, office and may include disqualifica- 

7 tion from holding any office of public trust. This v^as our 

8 assignment. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Could I suggest to you that you 

10 say. Upon conviction, judgment shall be? 

11 DR. BARD: All right, good. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Because judgment might be 

13 acquittal. 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: The judgment wouldn't be removal 

15 from office, in any event. The judgm.ent would be guilty as 

16 charged. The punishment would be removal from office. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm not so sure of that. 

18 The verdict V7ould certainly be guilty, but in criminal 

19 practice, isn't the sentence the judgment of the Court? 

20 MRS. BOTHE: There's a judgment and a sentence. 

21 THE CHAIRI4AN: I don't think you call it judgmen 



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1 in criminal practice. You call it sentence, but it seems 

2 to me that is the judgment. 

5 MRS. BOTHE: The judgment is guilty, the sen- 

4 tence is V7hatever -- 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: The verdict is guilty. 

6 MR. SYKES : The verdict is guilty and the judg- 

7 ment is conviction and the sentence is mechanical. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Can V7e leave that to the Committee 

9 on Style? Dr. Burdette. Any further questions as to 

10 Section 16? 

11 MR. MARTINEAU: I guess I do have a question. 

12 And may include disqualification. Is this to be by general 

13 law or is this in each separate judgment? 

14 THE CHjMRMAN: As phrased, it would be part of 

15 the judgment. 

16 MR. MARTINEAU: Except if they change it to, 

17 The penalty shall be -- if they change it to. Upon convic- 

18 tion, the penalty shall be removal from office and may in- 

19 elude -- that, it seems to me may be included by general 

20 lav; or by the specific vote upon the particular case. I 

21 would assume you mean the particular case, they could miake 
up their minds . 



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1 DR. BARD: That's correct. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions as to 
g Section -- Mr. Hoff? 

4 MR. HOFF: To v7hom does impeachment apply? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard, do you want to answer? 
5 DR. BARD: Mr. Brooks, because we spent a great 
rjr deal of time on this and you v;ere the one who -- would you 

3 comment on that? 

9 MR, BROOKS: I gather the impeachment here v7ould 

10 apply to all the public officials v/ho are elected under the 

11 Constitution. 

12 ' DR. BURDETTE: Provided by law. 

13 MR. SYKES: This says in all cases provided by 

14 law. 

25 MR. BROOKS: As a minimum, it would cover those 

15 elected V7ithin the Constitution. 

17 MR. SYKES: I don't know. 

18 THE CHAIRI'IAN: Well, I wonder then, in view of 

19 that question, whether there isn't perhaps m.uddy waters in 

20 the first clause? 

21 MR. SYKES: What is the current language in the 



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Constitution? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think it just refers to officer 
being impeached. It doesn't, as I recall, confer the ex- 
press power. 

MR. SYKES: There's a big change. In Section 
26 of Article 3, on Page 22, which says, The House of 
Delegates shall have the sole power of impeachrnent in all 
cases. Now, in the present text, we have in all cases, 
Provided by law, and that would indicate to me that nobody 
has any impeaching power in the State Government under this 
new provision, unless a law has been passed by the Legis- 
lature stating who is subject to im.peachment , and I think 
the solution would be to do the same thing that the old 
Constitution did. There is an inherent impeachment power 
and impeachment is a kind of common law doctrine going V7ay 
back and you can just strike out, Provided by law, and • 
eliminate the problem. I would so move. 

JUDGE ADKINS: I second that motion. 

THE CHAIPvMAN: Any discussion? Are you ready 
for the question? The question arises on the motion to 
strike the phrase Provided by law, at the end of the first 



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1 clause of the first sentence of Section 16. Before you vot^; 

2 on that, I'd like a minute, because I am somewhat concerned 

3 about the Judiciary. 

4r I take it, Mr. Martineau, that the removal pro- 

5 visions in the Judiciary Article v7ould be all encompassing? 

6 There would be no power of impeachment of a Judge? 

7 MR. MARTINEAU: Any consideration I've ever seen 

8 of the removal power of the Supreme Court over other Mem- 

9 bers of the Judiciary is alv7ays stated as being in addition 

10 to the power of impeachment, not in substitution thereof. 

11 MR. SYKES: That's right. 

12 DR. BARD: The word removal is used rather than 

13 impeachnient . 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm just wondering whether this 

15 would change it? I don't know that it would. 

16 MR. SAYRE: Well, impeachment, as such, yes. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: The present Constitution has a 

18 different provision with reference to Judges. It says, in 

19 Section 4, of Article IV: Any Judge shall be removed from 

20 office by the Governor, on conviction in a Court of Law, of 

21 incompetency, of wilful neglect of duty, misbehavior in 



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1 office, or any other crime, or on impeachment, according 

or 

2 to this Constitution,/ the Laws of the State. 

3 There is no counterpart in the present Judiciary 

4 Article, is there? 

5 THE MARTINEAU: We are voting this November on 

6 the establishment of a Commission on Judicial disabilities, 

7 which vjould give the Legislature the power to remove and 

8 the last section of it says. This Section is alternative an|3 

9 cumulative, provided in Article III of this Constitution, 

10 which I gather is impeachment. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: My question is, there is no pro- 

12 vision in the Article IV proposed by this Commission that is 

13 a counterpart of Section 4 of Article IV of the present 

14 Constitution, specifically providing for impeachment of 

15 Judges. 

16 MR. M-ARTINEAU: That's correct. 

17 MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, I would call to your 

18 attention that Section 13 of the Judiciary Article on re- 

19 moval of Judges simply provided for a power' in the Suprem.e 

20 Court to remove any Judge from office, and this nev; --it 

21 doesn't state any relation that that power has to any other 



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1 but the language in this Section that we're now considering 

2 on the Legislative Department, if you strike out the words, 

3 Provided by law, would be that the House of Delegates shall 

4 have the sole power of impeachment in all cases, and it 

5 would seem to me to be perfectly clear that there would be 

6 a pov7er to impeach Judges as V7ell as the other methods of 

7 removal provided in the Judiciary Articles. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what I wanted to have clear 

9 somev7here, either in the Constitution or in our Report or 

10 in the record here, that it is the understanding and belief 

11 of the Commission that although this Section of Article III 

12 will remain the only specific provision of the Constitution 

13 relating to impeachment, and although there is no provision 

14 in proposed Article IV with reference to impeachment of 

15 Judges, it is not intended to remove the pov7er of the 

16 Legislature to impeach Judges. Is there any dissent from 

17 that proposition? I take it that this Amendment would not 

18 in any way touch on that question or affect it. 

19 MR. HOFF: I have a question. VJas the ansv7er to 

20 my question that all elected officials could be impeached? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: That was the answer, but I would 



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1 not say that is a complete answer. 

2 MR. BROOKS: It was thought at the time as 
5 provided by law calls, or rather, the phrase was added be- 

4 cause of the removal of a number of prior elected officials 

5 from the Constitution, that it might be desirable and some 

6 allowance might want to be made for the impeachment of some 

7 of the appointed officials or officials chosen in manners 

8 other than by General Election. 

9 MR. HOFF: Well, I'm curious to know how far 

V7ith 

10 this power of impeachment does go? I'm not familiar/ it. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I am not sure myself, and 

12 your question is the one that is in my mind, I assume, anc 

13 that is, does the power of impeachment extend beyond elec- 

14 tive officers. I don't think V7e can answer that. I belie-^^e 

15 it does, but -- 

16 MR. MILLER: It does repeatedly on the Federal 

17 level. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's a question that wi 

19 will have to research further and I should think the answe:: 

20 would be fairly clear, if we can get it. Dr. Bard? 

21 DR. BARD: Mr. Chairman, in light of the 



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1 discussion, then,, v^hat do we gain by eliminating, Provided 

2 by lav7, Mr. Sykes? 

5 MR. SYKES: If the Legislature failed to provide 

4 for impeachment or if it failed to pass a law or if it 

5 passed a law that said that everybody but certain favorite 

6 people can be impeached, then there would be no pov7er to 

7 impeach certain officials who ought to be, 

8 If you are interested in a -- well, I v7on't say 

9 that, but I think that it removes a limitation which ought 

10 not to exist. 

11 DR. BARD: I'd like to have other Members of 

12 the Legislative Committee comment on this point, but it was 

13 our feeling' that , Provided by law, would actually strengthen 

14 this particular Section and clarify -- the mere fact that 

15 we ourselves are not clear -- and place the povjer within 

16 the hands of the General Assembly to so provide. Am I . 

17 right about that, Mr. Scanlan? 

18 MR. SCANI^N: I don't recall participating in 

19 that aspect, Harry. I was going to say that I agree with 

20 Mel, unless we delete that phrase, the new Legislature 

21 under a new Constitution v;ould have the power to say who 



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1 can be impeached and who cannot be impeached and, if they 

2 don't do anything, there would be no power of impeachment. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the real danger in it, 

^ that unless they covered every possible office, the power 

5 would disappear, but I must confess that I think even the 

6 deletion of the phrase is not the complete answer to the 

7 problem., unless we are sure that the pov7er of impeachment 
exists as to all officers, either pointed or elected. Mr. 

^ Martineau? 
10 MR. MARTINEAU: I just might suggest that the 

^•^ Federal Constitution specifically says it applies to all 
Civil officers of the United States, and V7e might want to 

13 do the same thing. 

14 DR. BARD: That would be clearer than leaving 

15 it out entirely, it seems to me. 

16 MR. SYKES: What Section? 

17 MR. MARTINEAU: Article II, Section 4, on Page 

18 121. 

19 MR. BROOKS: The problem is that even so, v;ith 
our Civil Service types of arrangements and conglomeration 
of positions, you still have the question of what are the 



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officers. 

MR. MARTINEAU: That's right. I think that 
V7ould be open to Judicial interpretation. It would have 
to be. 

MR. BROOKS: Would it clear it by leaving it or 
adding it? It doesn't say v;here the line is any more than 
if we didn't have the line. 

MR. MARTINEAU: But if you don't have something 
in here, it may be an empty pov7er. 

MR. MILLER: Would adding all Civil officers -- 
shall have the povjer of impeachment of all Civil officers, 
would that clarify it? 

MR. SYKES: What about the Adjutant General? 

MR. MINDEL: The model Constitution provides that; 
the Legislature may impeach the Governor, heads of principal 
departments, judicial of f icers and such other other officers 
of the State as may be made subject to impeachment by law. 

MR. HOFF: Officers of the State would prohibit 
the impeachment going down into local officers. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I'm wondering whether --as much 
as I hate to defer anything, I'm wondering v;hether this is 



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1 a matter that the Committee should consider more carefully 

2 and come back with a report as the second special order of 
2 business on next Monday? 

4 MR. SYKES: I will withdraw my motion, but 1 

5 would request that the first order of business of the 

Q Committee in considering this is the First Draft of the 

7 memorandum on the impeachment pov7er and I hope on the im- 

8 peachment power, as distinguished from the Legislative 

9 provision, it gets a memorandum. 

10 DR. BARD: It is a problem. If you can help us 

11 any by taking a day off, that will be deeply appreciated. 

12 ' THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is withdrawn and, in 

13 the absence of objection, the Section will be re-committed 

14 to the Committee to report back at the next meeting of the 

15 Commission. 

15 DR. BARD: Section 17 had but three words added 

17 at the request of the Commission and those are the words on 

18 Page 6, in final form. Except during the first tv7o days of 

19 a special session, no final vote for passage of a bill shall 

20 be taken until the bill shall have been printed in final 

21 form. 



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The Commission asked us to insert those words 
just to protect it; and until the third calendar day after 
introduction. 

Now, I have an important item here, a final 



statement. 



THE CHAIRI^AN: I had a note with reference to 



Section 13 that I omitted to call to your attention, if you 
will go back there a moment. The first line says, Each 
House shall be the final judge. I wonder what is added by 
the word, final, and I wonder if it isn't a trouble maker, 
because it connotes that someone else is also preliminarily 
a judge? Would there be any objection to deleting the v7ord 
final, in the first line of Section 13? 

DR. BURDETTE: Why not sole, instead of final? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Why not just. Shall be the judge? 

MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, I think you might want, 
to eliminate any problem.s, as to whether or not there is 
judicial review. In fact, 6ven the word, final, in connec- 
tion with administrative agencies does not eliminate- judi- 
cial review, but I think there is more of a chance, in 
light of the general interpretation of Constitutional 



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1 provisions for Legislatures which use similar language, 

2 that the Courts will keep hands off in this area and I 

3 would be afraid that if you left out the usual language, 

4 somebody might seize on this as a pretext for saying we 
6 intended to weaken the independence of -- 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know that the word, final 

7 is the usual language. I think the usual language, that I'm 

8 familiar with, is that each House shall be the judge of the 

9 qualifications of its own Members, and I would think if you 

10 said that you would leave untouched the question of whether 

11 there could or could not be judicial review. 

12 MR. SYKES: The Federal Constitution, in Section 

13 5 of Article I, says it shall be the judge. 

14 MR. MILLER: Didn't the Federal Courts take over 

15 in connection with one of those recent Alabama elections? 

16 MR. SCANLAN: No, they didn't. That's the 

17 point now before the Supreme Court, 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: The same language in Section 19 

19 of Article III. Do you have any further question, Mr, 

20 Sykes? 

21 MR. SYKES: I don't think the emphasis, even 



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1 with the word, final, is misplaced. It's in here. I make 

2 no motions, I'm not unhappy with it. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: What I was saying was in the ab- 
^ sence of objection, we would delete the word. Do you ob- 
5 ject to deleting it? 
^ MR. SYKES: If it is understood definitely that 
'^ there is no intention of a change and that this would carry 
® over whatever the meaning of the present Constitional pro- 
^ vision is, I have no strong feeling on it, 

DR. BARD: Final is not in the present. 

^^ DR. BURDETTE: It almost seems to me it would 

1 ? 

^^ be better not to use the word, final. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: That was my point. 

1^ DR. BURDETTE: It implies that there could be a 

15 preliminary one. We had a case in Montgomery County in 

1^ which the Courts, in dealing v^ith eligibility -- 
1*7 THE CHAIRMAN: Then the word, final, is deleted. 

IQ Now, Dr. Bard, you had another matter. 
19 DR. BARD: We have one final matter, and this is 

our great point of debate, confrontation, discussion, and 
we have been delaying a decision V7ith reference to our 



10 



20 
21 



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1 recommendation vis-a-vis bicameralism or unicameralism. 

2 From the beginning, you will remember that our 

3 Committee was almost split evenly down the middle and this 
•4 Commission itself had no strong recommendation to us when 

5 we asked for a poll of interest. 

6 We are now giving our recommendation as noted 

7 on Pago 6. By a majority of one vote, the Committee recom- 

8 mends to the Coirimission the adoption of a bicameral 

9 Legislature. The majority recognizes that the case for 

10 unicameralism is almost as strong, but believes that 

11 Maryland should retain its bicameral Legislature. We did 

12 not take time on this occasion to review the arguments on 

13 both sides again because V7e've done so on so many other 

14 occasions. 

15 I would like to add, though, that some of us 

16 felt that now that the progress report or the preparatory 

17 report was beginning to unfold, that the nature of the 

18 preparatory report itself, and I'm going to add here that 

19 this is not the view necessarily of the entire Committee, 

20 that the nature of the preparatory report itself v;as such 

21 that a recommendation in terms of bicameralism, would be 



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1 more in keeping with the nature of the way the territorial 

2 report was unfolding. 

3 On the other hand, we would like to make it 

4: clear that we are submitting a second text, which you have 

5 in your hands, so that it v7ould be -- and v^hich V7e're 

6 calling Continuation of the Seventh Report of the Committee 

7 on Legislative Department, so that it v;ould be easy enough 

8 for the Convention itself to adopt unicameralism, if it so 

9 desired. 

10 In a sense, then, our report submits tV7o recom- 

11 mendations and we feel very strongly that earlier papers 

12 that we have submitted in our deliberations should be for- 

13 V7arded to the Convention as a whole, so that they might be 

14 prepared to have the arguments in terms of both sides. 

15 MR. SYKES; It is nigh onto noon this Sunday, 

16 and I venture to suggest that whatever vote we take here 

17 today, with some eight or more Members of the Commission 

18 absent, that vote on this delicate question is going to be 

19 surely reconsidered at some meeting of the Commission V7hich 

20 has a greater number of Members present, and I would suggest 

21 that this question be made the third special order of 



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J business for an hour on a clay when there most likely v7ould 

2 be full representation of the Commission Membership and V7e 

should not try to resolve it now. 
4. THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to suggest amending 

c that to the extent of saying at the next meeting. 
g MR. SYKES: Very well. That's what I meant. 

y THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

Q DR. BARD: I would agree with that, except that 

Q I believe we ought to make note at this time of the recom- 

20 mendation of the Committee because, unless V7e do, we'll be 

22 going all the way back and moving in circles again. So 

22 that it seems to me that if V7e do make note of our recom- 
25 mentation, which at this point is a recommendation in favor 
24 or bicameralism, we would then have something to hinge our 
,c debate onto. 

2g This is all we're saying. I'm not asking now 

•try that the Commission as a v^hole vote on the recommendation. 

23 I am asking that you call attention to it, and finally, I 
29 would like to have John say just a word or . tv7o about this 



20 



exhibit which v;as handed out within the last two or three 



22 minutes . 



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1 MR. MARTINEAU: Could I ask a question before we 

2 get off the recommendation of the Committee? I would just 
5 like to get the Committee Members on both sides, the names. 

4 I want a poll. 

5 DR. BARD: At this time v;e don't feel it is im- 

6 portant to indicate nor even germane to indicate -- 

7 MR. MARTINEAU: I feel it is. 

8 DR. BARD -•- the individuals who felt one way or 

9 another. There will be opportunity for every Member of the 
10 Committee, as for Members of the Commission, to marshall 

■^1 their opinions and to make them known on this day of 

12 reckoning which we have set forth. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Let Mr. Brooks explain this 
1^ memorandum, so that you can consider it. 

15 MR. BROOKS: This is something for you, that you 

16 might want to look over before the next meeting. This is 

17 only a part of an analysis that is being prepared on the 

18 last session of the Legislature for which there are com- 

19 plete records at this point, and that's the session before 

20 last, 1965. 

There is no key on this particular page, so I 



21 



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1 will briefly indicate what this information is about. 

2 First of all, this is being prepared in response 

3 to the several inquiries we have had concerning the extent 

4 of review one body gives to the legislation of the other. 

5 The first thing we've used, and V7e used this information 

6 many times in the Political Subcommittee, is hov; much legis 

7 lation is local in nature and how much is State, Now, all 

8 of these recommendations, insofar as you can make a sta- 

9 tistical analysis, is as much judgment. You will note, 

10 under House and Senate bills, the first item is just a 

11 recognition of hov7 many of the bills are really local in 

12 character, as apart from those dealing with Statewise issues. 
15 As you can see, in the House, 39.4, and in the Senate 46.3. 

14 Now, the first column is the number of total 

15 bills considered in the House and Senate. Now, the first, 

16 under both State and local, I'll deal with just the House, 

17 because the sam^e key is applicable to both, died in Comrnittjee 

18 is not literally that. It's died in Committee or on the 

19 Floor. Died in the Senate means either died in the Committ4e 

20 or died on the Floor. Review Index Zero indicates that the 

21 body, in this case, looking at the House, that the House 



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1 passed 183 bills carried to them from the Senate vjithout 

2 any alteration at all. Review Index One indicates that 
5 only a grammatical change of some kind or other has been 

^ made in the bills enacted that have been sent to the House 

5 from the Senate. Review Index Two indicates minor sub- 

6 stantive change. Review Index Three indicates some major 

7 overhaul, a real significant policy alteration in the 

8 legislation as it arrived from the Senate, and Conference 

9 Committees have those bills referred out to Conference. 

There is one problem, there's an immediate dis- 

^^ crepancy betv/een Three and Four. There should be the same 

^2 number in the Senate and Committee, but one got lost some- 

13 where. There is one other thing that should be called to 

1^ your attention that could be a significant factor that is 

15 not reflected here, v;'hich is the question of hov7 many of 

IS the bills were precisely the same at the time they were 

17 introduced in the House and the Senate and that will be 

18 taken into account at a later time, but at this point we 

19 don't have sufficient statistics to indicate that on this 

20 particular analysis. 

21 THE CHAIRI^lAN: All right, now, without putting 



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1 the last suggestion to a vote, we will exercise the 

2 privilege of the Staff and say that the matter of the de- 

3 cision of the Commission, whether it recommends unicameral 
4: or bicameral, will be on the agenda at an early portion of 

5 the next meeting, which is Monday a V7eek, Monday, the 24th. 

6 Let me remind you that the Commission has here- 

7 tofore decided that it will include as alternate recommenda 

8 tions provisions for both a bicameral and unicameral Legis- 

9 lature. The Committee has drafted and you have with you in 

10 your report a complete draft of the Legislative Articles 

11 pertaining to unicameral Legislatures, This would not be 

12 a complete listing of all changes which would be necessary 

13 throughout the Constitution, which V7e recommend with the 

14 unicameral Legislature. Other Articles and other informa- 

15 tion would be necessary. 

16 However, it is important for you to read over 

17 and understand the provisions of this Article with referenc^ 

18 to a unicameral Legislature, for two reasons. One, so 

19 that you can see in terms of actual language how it would 

20 operate and, secondly, so that we can move quickly when we 

21 consider that language, because regardless of which of the 



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1 two alternates v;e recommend, we will be recommending 

2 language for each. 

3 I was very anxious to have at least some oppor- 

4 tunity for the Committee on Political Subdivisions, but 

5 we're within tv7o minutes of the hour of adjournment and I 

6 have tried to adhere to the promises made as to the final 

7 adjournment and, therefore, we will not be able to hear from 

8 that Committee. 

9 It will be necessary for us to meet, I think, the 

10 full tv7o days of the next session, the 24th and 25th. The 

11 meeting will probably be at the Brown Estate. We will 

12 advise you promptly about that and also advise you on how 

13 to get there and the recommendations and so forth. 

14 Let me say that I think it is vital, that if 

15 it's humanly possible, these next two sessions be attended 

16 by every Member of the Commission. We must finish the 

17 draft and get on with the work of our report. I think 

18 we've made a tremendous amiount of progress in these past 

19 three days, but there is still a tremendous am.ount to do anc^ 

20 V7e can get it done and do it properly if everyone can be 

21 present, and I realize that this is a real sacrifice. I 



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1 would hesitate to be as stringent about it as I am, if it 

2 were not for the fact that the task is tremendously impor- 

3 tant and V7e cannot do it with part of the Commission. We 

4 need the help of every Member. 

5 Is there anything anyone else desires to bring 

6 up? May I ask just one other thing, before you leave, of 

7 every Committee Chairman. I have a little hesitancy in 

8 asking this, but not too much, really, because I have no 

9 alternative. Will each Chairman ask his reporter to go 

10 over the changes in the portions of the Constitution for 

11 which the Committee is responsible and which have been agrec^ 

12 upon finally and endeavor to let me have a draft, a com- 

13 pletely revised draft of what he understands to be com- 

14 pletely revised, except as to sections still under study, 

15 by Tuesday. This would mean that each reporter, this is 

16 a mechanical task, really, it means each reporter V7ill have 

17 to do it tomorrow or tomorrow evening. I don't care how 

18 scratched up it is, but I think it's imperative that we 

19 be able to submit to you in advance of the next meeting a 

20 picture of the v;hole Constitution to the extent that we 

21 have moved today. 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: On that point, Mr. Chairman, can 

2 we put it over until Wednesday morning, so our Committee 
5 can meet Tuesday night? 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll give a special dispensation 

■ - • 

5 to your Committee, but to none of the others. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: It's a very poor salve, but I'll 

7 accept it. 

8 MR. SAYRE: At this point, Mr. Chairman, I don't 

9 see how I can be there. Is it possible now to present a 

10 vote in favor of unicameralism? 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I would hesitate to do this be- 

12 cause we have decided that a person not present should not 

13 be entitled to vote. 

14 MR. SCANLAN: Mr. Chairman, even though Mr. 

15 Sayre's vote is not the same as mine, I move for an excep- 

16 tion. We have discussed bicameralism versus cameralism, 

17 If he isn't qualified to cast a vote now, I 

18 don't know V7hen he'll ever be. ' 

19 THE CliAIRMAN: My point is the same privilege 

be 

20 would have to/extended to every other absent Member of the 

21 Commission and I would fear that there would be a request 



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]_ that the same privilege be extended to vote on other 

2 matters. I think it's rough that V7e have to do this, but 

2 ! I really feel that it would be most unwise to provide at 

4 this late date for absentee voting. You never know what 

c comes up in debate. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that 

y if you don't permit them to vote, that I think the record 

ought to indicate the feelings of those people who are ab- 

9 sent? 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: No difficulty about doing this at 

11 all, 

12 MR, BOND: May I suggest that the convening time 

13 not be set a't 9 o'clock next Monday morning? 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Would 8:30 be better? 

15 MR, BOND: I just suspect it's going to be prettv 
15 hard for everybody to get there by 9. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: It's up around Elkton. We'll 

18 have to find out how far it is for the furthest Member and 

19 work a convenient time. We'll try to work it so no one 

20 has to arise earlier than 5 a.m. that morning. 

21 (The Meeting adjourned at 12 noon.) 



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